The Enigma of Anarchism.

[Core]

There was a saying once that I have long since forgotten Chhimer but it went something like this.

"Ants... I see those people from my office on the 42nd floor in New York...they scurry around and as I watch them I can totally anticipate what they will do.. where they are going... but.. up close the individual is capable of anything... A computer is like those ants... but if a computer became like the individual... more then just hell would break loose..."

Point is... Yes an individual can be messy, and evil and anything really.. but we're talking about an anarchist establishment.. not ONE individual upclose.

 

[Chimer]

There was a saying once that I have long since forgotten Chhimer but it went something like this.

"Ants... I see those people from my office on the 42nd floor in New York...they scurry around and as I watch them I can totally anticipate what they will do.. where they are going... but.. up close the individual is capable of anything... A computer is like those ants... but if a computer became like the individual... more then just hell would break loose..."

Point is... Yes an individual can be messy, and evil and anything really.. but we're talking about an anarchist establishment.. not ONE individual upclose.

A group is a set of individuality... so even if you can put people together, one day or another, divergence will appear.

I don't say that an Anarchist establishment is bad... idk i've never tryied. I have nothing against this. I just lost hope.

 

[Core]

A group is a set of individuality... so even if you can put people together, one day or another, divergence will appear.

I don't say that an Anarchist establishment is bad... idk i've never tryied. I have nothing against this. I just lost hope.

But dude thats a personal thing between you and your ego

Anarchism doesnt force the grouping of individuals... therefore if you do diverge go ahead.. you can diverge somewhere else. Thats how it works It is not meant for the full population of the planet. It could work but then everyone would have to choose to group which isnt required

 

[Zero Phoenix]

A group is a set of individuality... so even if you can put people together, one day or another, divergence will appear.

I don't say that an Anarchist establishment is bad... idk i've never tryied. I have nothing against this. I just lost hope.

You're a wise man. I get so sick and tired of repeating myself for the masses but I'll do it again. Someone finally got the point so it seems to be working.

This debate we're having about Anarchism and how it "can" work as a system is little more than a mash-up of the same arguments people before us have laid down for democracy, socialism, monarchies, and so forth. Every system, no matter how utopian in nature will always succumb to some level of corruption at some point. Even if a system is perfect on the basis of it's ideaology, it's fundamentally flawed because it relies on people in order to make it work. Corruption exists at every level and even if you get a group of like-minded individuals working for the same cause, it will not always be so. There will be a divergence.

Compare the birth of America to America of today.

The Founding Fathers, like-minded individuals with similar goals working towards the same end. Now look at America today. Need I say more?

No matter what anyone thinks, Anarchism as a system does not work because it relies on "people" to form an administration that facilitates it's benefits. People by nature are flawed so anything we create will follow suit.

 

[Core]

You're a wise man. I get so sick and tired of repeating myself for the masses but I'll do it again. Someone finally got the point so it seems to be working.

This debate we're having about Anarchism and how it "can" work as a system is little more than a mash-up of the same arguments people before us have laid down for democracy, socialism, monarchies, and so forth. Every system, no matter how utopian in nature will always succumb to some level of corruption at some point. Even if a system is perfect on the basis of it's ideaology, it's fundamentally flawed because it relies on people in order to make it work. Corruption exists at every level and even if you get a group of like-minded individuals working for the same cause, it will not always be so. There will be a divergence.

Compare the birth of America to America of today.

The Founding Fathers, like-minded individuals with similar goals working towards the same end. Now look at America today. Need I say more?

No matter what anyone thinks, Anarchism as a system does not work because it relies on "people" to form an administration that facilitates it's benefits. People by nature are flawed so anything we create will follow suit.

Nihilistic points of view are null in a discussion/argument.

You're not completely wrong but you are human therefore what you just said by your own definition... is flawed and therefore can easily be dismissed.

 

[Zero Phoenix]

Nihilistic points of view are null in a discussion/argument.

This is why I consider you a fool. It's not Nihilism it's history. Every political system on the planet had humble beginnings. It doesn't matter what the system is, nothing just came to be everything had a foundation. Goodwill, peace, equality, freedom, capitalist gain, every political system we created all came from good origins. They diverged into different areas like Communism, Democracy, Socialism, Dictatorships, and so forth. That too is all well and good. However, do you know what every political system has in common? They're all corrupt. All systems are abused by individuals within those systems who maintain power and this almost always happens at the expense of the people. You can't claim I'm being Nihilistic just for knowing history. But I suppose anyone who is educated ends up on your bad side.

You're not completely wrong but you are human therefore what you just said by your own definition... is flawed and therefore can easily be dismissed.

1) You cannot place me on the same level as someone of your standing. I am educated you are not.
2) I was referring to the fact that because human beings are perfect they carry with them certain imperfections which will be reflected in their creation.
3) While it is possible humans can create something good, noble, pure, the more individuals involved in this process the more dangerous it becomes as their imperfections will also be reflected in the system that is being created.


Try again.

 

[Chimer]

But dude thats a personal thing between you and your ego

Yeah that's not false =P

Anarchism doesnt force the grouping of individuals... therefore if you do diverge go ahead.. you can diverge somewhere else. Thats how it works It is not meant for the full population of the planet. It could work but then everyone would have to choose to group which isnt required

i dunno if it's a good answer but, even if i want to live by myself, i know it's impossible, cause even if i don't really want it, i need the others to go forward. Cause ( i think ) it's what brings human kind where it is now ( i mean as an evolued animal capable of great things like civilizations... My apologies if you got some difficulties with my english... i'm French... ).

You're a wise man

*Bows* but i dk, it's just my way to see things.

Compare the birth of America to America of today.

it could be used with "the world"

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////

I think that's the "money damage". Cause it gives the opportinuty to express the human being's greed. We want always more... and it's a Blade with double sharp edge, this greed could make us step forward for the all but it will bring envy in the indidualities.

 

[Core]

This is why I consider you a fool. It's not Nihilism it's history. Every political system on the planet had humble beginnings. It doesn't matter what the system is, nothing just came to be everything had a foundation. Goodwill, peace, equality, freedom, capitalist gain, every political system we created all came from good origins. They diverged into different areas like Communism, Democracy, Socialism, Dictatorships, and so forth. That too is all well and good. However, do you know what every political system has in common? They're all corrupt. All systems are abused by individuals within those systems who maintain power and this almost always happens at the expense of the people. You can't claim I'm being Nihilistic just for knowing history. But I suppose anyone who is educated ends up on your bad side.




1) You cannot place me on the same level as someone of your standing. I am educated you are not.
2) I was referring to the fact that because human beings are perfect they carry with them certain imperfections which will be reflected in their creation.
3) While it is possible humans can create something good, noble, pure, the more individuals involved in this process the more dangerous it becomes as their imperfections will also be reflected in the system that is being created.


Try again.

Lets solve it with math then!

Humans = Flawed
Theory = idea

Humans* idea = Flawed*Theory

Remove the flawed component and you get:
Idea = Theory.

Either you accept all human theory is flawed because humans are flawed or you accept that not all theories are flawed and the human component is irrelevant.
If the former is what you believe and All theories are flawed because they are thought of by humans but then its really simple to accept that theory is flawed and humans are flawed.. and simply ignore the fact they are flawed and all you are left with is ideas that can be disproven or proven. Welcome... To Science m'boy

I dont care how educated you think you are.. a lifetime of online arguing does not pass as a qualification.

 

[Core]

Yeah that's not false =P



i dunno if it's a good answer but, even if i want to live by myself, i know it's impossible, cause even if i don't really want it, i need the others to go forward. Cause ( i think ) it's what brings human kind where it is now ( i mean as an evolued animal capable of great things like civilizations... My apologies if you got some difficulties with my english... i'm French... ).

Feel free to speak in french I understand what you mean though but What you mean by divergence is... something that applies to the individual... How can I put this... "1 death is a tragedy.... a million is a statistic."

You are viewing the social grouping from YOUR perspective.. if you can agree that all that you know now is conditioned on the world today... then I understand why you are having difficulty with that concept.

 

[Zero Phoenix]

Core my friend if you got any dumber you'd need a helmet. What makes Anarchism any different from Socialism, Marxism, Leninism, Dictatorships, and Democracies? What makes Anarchism the perfect system? Explain why an Anarchist world is an ideal world. Please, prove me and history wrong. What would allow Anarchism to avoid the pitfalls that all other systems fell into?

 

[noex1337]

Realistically speaking, the main opponent of anarchism seems to be external pressure.

 

[Core]

Core my friend if you got any dumber you'd need a helmet. What makes Anarchism any different from Socialism, Marxism, Leninism, Dictatorships, and Democracies? What makes Anarchism the perfect system? Explain why an Anarchist world is an ideal world. Please, prove me and history wrong. What would allow Anarchism to avoid the pitfalls that all other systems fell into?

Anarchism isnt perfect I am not even an anarchist lol

It is simply a wish to regress to the way things were before all those methods of control were introduced. You are not wrong when you said any idea thought of by man is flawed.

But you cant mix and match.. Either its all flawed.. or none of its flawed.. You cant.. mix and match those philosophies

Realistically speaking, the main opponent of anarchism seems to be external pressure.

Name one form of government that does not have that

 

[noex1337]

America seems to be doing fine against external pressure. I'd like to see anarchist try to fight a war.

 

[Chimer]

Feel free to speak in french I understand what you mean though but What you mean by divergence is... something that applies to the individual... How can I put this... "1 death is a tragedy.... a million is a statistic."

You are viewing the social grouping from YOUR perspective.. if you can agree that all that you know now is conditioned on the world today... then I understand why you are having difficulty with that concept.

Lol if i speak French here... Kaze kami gonna kill me for sure...

i agree with the fact it 's personnal point of view : For me a group is a set of individualities, so when divergence come, it has an impact on the group.

i think i understand what you mean by "1 death is a tragedy.... a million is a statistic.", even if i don't like this point, i mean a million death isn't a statistic and it's more than a tragedy ( for me )

From Core => "if you can agree that all that you know now is conditioned on the world today" yeah i know, i mean yes all i know now is conditionned by the world of today cause i'm living in a particular period and my memories/experiences/... is automatically based on this. "it's my life in my time".

From Core => "then I understand why you are having difficulty with that concept".

Then can you explain this to me please ^^.

 

[Core]

America seems to be doing fine against external pressure. I'd like to see anarchist try to fight a war.

War? what War? Pressure? What pressure?

But you are now comparing apples and oranges... you are comparing an established country vs an ideal


So if you are saying that Democracy is not threatened by external pressure.. you would be wrong which is prolly why you said america

 

[Zero Phoenix]

Anarchism isnt perfect I am not even an anarchist lol

I never said you were an Anarchist. I merely asked what would make Anarchism a good system. ;?;

It is simply a wish to regress to the way things were before all those methods of control were introduced. You are not wrong when you said any idea thought of by man is flawed.

I see I see. Had you said this a page ago instead of talking shit I would have no issue with you. I actually do agree with you in this regard. Perhaps we should start all over again. As we know the issues in our current system, the best way to fix them may simply be to start over.

 

[Core]

I never said you were an Anarchist. I merely asked what would make Anarchism a good system. ;?;



I see I see. Had you said this a page ago instead of talking shit I would have no issue with you. I actually do agree with you in this regard. Perhaps we should start all over again. As we know the issues in our current system, the best way to fix them may simply be to start over.

But now you didnt quote the best part!

If all theories by man are flawed.. they are also not flawed.

Because if you use the argument they are flawed because we dont have enough information... that can eventually be rectified till then.. best theory counts... but if you base it on human nature to exploit and grow... then sure.. everything is wrong we should all stop doing what were doing... COMPLETELY!

But not right either is it?

 

[Core]

Lol if i speak French here... Kaze kami gonna kill me for sure...

i agree with the fact it 's personnal point of view : For me a group is a set of individualities, so when divergence come, it has an impact on the group.

i think i understand what you mean by "1 death is a tragedy.... a million is a statistic.", even if i don't like this point, i mean a million death isn't a statistic and it's more than a tragedy ( for me )

From Core => "if you can agree that all that you know now is conditioned on the world today" yeah i know, i mean yes all i know now is conditionned by the world of today cause i'm living in a particular period and my memories/experiences/... is automatically based on this. "it's my life in my time".

From Core => "then I understand why you are having difficulty with that concept".

Then can you explain this to me please ^^.

You already said: I agreewith the fact that its personal point of view..

That explains to me why you had difficulty with what I was saying before.

The rest.. excellent! we have discussed, without condoning or condemning, to the point of understanding! <3

 

[Chimer]

You are welcome ^^

 

[Zero Phoenix]

But now you didnt quote the best part!

If all theories by man are flawed.. they are also not flawed.

Because if you use the argument they are flawed because we dont have enough information... that can eventually be rectified till then.. best theory counts... but if you base it on human nature to exploit and grow... then sure.. everything is wrong we should all stop doing what were doing... COMPLETELY!

But not right either is it?

I sorted through the logical hedgemaze in your argument and I agree with your assessment. Again, as usual, that's beside the point. My argument was what made Anarchism a viable system. This particular mess has nothing to do with that. However, as you've proved your point in a previous post (Anarchism is in a way a reset of the societal structures we have in place) and as I was in agreement I saw no further reason to debate with you.

Or, are you going to argue that I should disagree with you? ;?;