The Enigma of Anarchism.

Core

Fascinating...
Having a Bachelor in what? The fact that you have a Bachelor doesnt mean you are knowledgeable on every topic. And even if you have a Bachelor in history Im compelled to ask you in what period exactly. No, it seems to me that mentioning a Bachelor was just a vain attempt to scare me into thinking youre right on the subject. It is however, a lame attempt. Instead of showing off with your degrees, why dont you go find me a more compelling piece of evidence that America was established on late Rome's principles other then by showing some iconography similarities.


Oh really. Im sorry but I was just honestly confused by what you wrote.


No, I dont think Romans were uncivilized brutes. I am saying that ever since Ceasar came into power, Rome has been led by increasingly incompetent dictators. Nero and Caligula are just two fine examples of these incompetent idiots. One burned down Rome, the other promoted his favorite horse to consul. And more corrupt and retarded idiots followed after them. You were saying that America would end up as Rome because it was (perhaps) founded on the principles of early Rome, in an attempt to attack my point about Somalia. I pointed out the sheer stupidity of this argument, since obviously, America and late Rome (the one that actually disintegrated and collapsed) have absolutely nothing in common (seeing how America is not run by retarded dictators and their favorite horses).

My point exactly, Noex actually couldnt stop laughing because I told him BEFORE you decided to pick social psychology to tell me to go back to school for... but thatsbesides the point. IT is lame when you decide DEGREES are what supposedly make you an expert. So this is an instance of the pot calling the kettle black. So telling me to go back to school just because you have a different opinion which may or may not be more or less true is just retarded.



"Oh really. Im sorry but I was just honestly confused by what you wrote." Then ask. I dont care about being right I dont care about showing everyone here how big mah e-brain is. Dont be afraid to ask.You have an opinion about everything but sometimes I wonder if you would be better of if you asked a question instead of imposing your opinion as absolute truth.

What Kaze meant by OOOH THE IRONY is that.. it is ironic for someone who is not a psychologist(which he argued you were not in a different topic just 24 hours ago) that you now use "AND ALLLLLLALLLLALLALALLALALLALALLALALAL the other psychologists are WROOGNNGNGN!?" because you are not one... therefore failed to make the reasonable argument that they are right...
And on a sidenote... yes. They are wrong.
(For those unaware there is a critical difference in the way Psychologists view the matter some use the answer that theoretically lies closest to truth to solve problems... and others use the empirical, analytical science that while constant.Cannot be used to explain a whole damn lot.)


And finally... did you ever see...THE DARK NIGHT?! Dent had something to say about ceasar.
and yes its true. After him no one relinquished the power and they can all be seen as DICTATORS.
I have one name in my little that can be compared to a recent president: Nero.. to Bush... But hey! who cares you're right right?
Not once though have I seen you comment about the system as a government. Not even in theory. You just dismiss it because of ceasars actions.
That is like me saying the THE AMERICANS ARENT UNCIVILIZED BRUTES THEY JUST WANT THE WORLD TO SEE THAT BECAUSE THEY ELECTED BUSH! TWICE!
What about the 200 years before bush?

I have noticed that you dont think of your theories and opinions as fallible AT ALL. One day though.. you are gonna flat on your face and you will feel absolutely retarded. Just trying to help buddy I am not saying you are retarded but you believe beyond the shadow of a doubt that every word out of your mouth is the truth. The whole truth and nothing but the truth.

You didnt come here to view others opinions on the matter you came to impose yours. Sounds like religion to me.. just by any other name.
 

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
My point exactly, Noex actually couldnt stop laughing because I told him BEFORE you decided to pick social psychology to tell me to go back to school for... but thatsbesides the point. IT is lame when you decide DEGREES are what supposedly make you an expert. So this is an instance of the pot calling the kettle black. So telling me to go back to school just because you have a different opinion which may or may not be more or less true is just retarded.
I never flaunted with my degrees, or even claimed to have one in Psychology. All I said was due a few years of Social Psychology and they will no doubt tell you all about the diffusion of responsibility and similar effects. I got all of that in my first year, so no doubt you too.



"Oh really. Im sorry but I was just honestly confused by what you wrote." Then ask. I dont care about being right I dont care about showing everyone here how big mah e-brain is. Dont be afraid to ask.You have an opinion about everything but sometimes I wonder if you would be better of if you asked a question instead of imposing your opinion as absolute truth.
Now this is a better instance of pot calling the kettle black. I havent heard you ask much questions either, instead only imposing your opinion as well.

What Kaze meant by OOOH THE IRONY is that.. it is ironic for someone who is not a psychologist(which he argued you were not in a different topic just 24 hours ago) that you now use "AND ALLLLLLALLLLALLALALLALALLALALLALALAL the other psychologists are WROOGNNGNGN!?" because you are not one... therefore failed to make the reasonable argument that they are right...
What does that have to do with me or everyone who is actually a psychologist? Im just saying what Psychologists are saying (at least, judging by my first year of psychology). They have done tons of studies to these effects and you just barge in say they are wrong and you are right. Okay, and Im to believe that?

And on a sidenote... yes. They are wrong.
(For those unaware there is a critical difference in the way Psychologists view the matter some use the answer that theoretically lies closest to truth to solve problems... and others use the empirical, analytical science that while constant.Cannot be used to explain a whole damn lot.)
Right, closest to the truth? What truth? How do you know its the truth? If its the truth, then why are you the only one who knows its the truth?

In order for me to accept your proposition on why humans behave in a certain way, I first have accept that you somehow know THE TRUTH. And from that truth you have derived theoretical answers. So, instead of relying on the experts who made it their lifes work to understand human behavior, we have here someone who claims to know THE TRUTH and because of that he can work his way back to the reasons why there is a diffusion of responsibility. How did you get to THE TRUTH? Did it suddenly occur to you? Do you have any proof that it is indeed THE TRUTH?

You have given me zero reasons to believe that you somehow know THE TRUTH (hell I dont even know THE TRUTH about what) or that it has any relevance to what we were discussing. Sorry, but I put my trust with the people who's job it is to understand humans.


And finally... did you ever see...THE DARK NIGHT?! Dent had something to say about ceasar.
and yes its true. After him no one relinquished the power and they can all be seen as DICTATORS.
I have one name in my little that can be compared to a recent president: Nero.. to Bush... But hey! who cares you're right right?
Not once though have I seen you comment about the system as a government. Not even in theory. You just dismiss it because of ceasars actions.
That is like me saying the THE AMERICANS ARENT UNCIVILIZED BRUTES THEY JUST WANT THE WORLD TO SEE THAT BECAUSE THEY ELECTED BUSH! TWICE!
What about the 200 years before bush?
Nero and Bush. Well sorry but I really dont see what they have in common.

As for the system, that was my point all along. The Rome that fell DIDNT HAVE A SYSTEM ANYMORE! It had been plundered by said dictators who corrupted it just so they could get away with their ridiculous stuff. And even then, the system of Rome and America only has some superficial resemblances. Its just fallacious to say that the Roman Republic is the same as the American republic in the way its institutions work or even exist.

And on top of that, I never heard you mention the government itself as well. All you provided as evidence were some symbols.

I have noticed that you dont think of your theories and opinions as fallible AT ALL. One day though.. you are gonna flat on your face and you will feel absolutely retarded. Just trying to help buddy I am not saying you are retarded but you believe beyond the shadow of a doubt that every word out of your mouth is the truth. The whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Go talk to someone who knows me a bit better then you do. I will admit Im wrong when you prove me wrong. Im not gonna admit that Im wrong just because you say Im wrong, without providing even a half way believable or even logical argument for why I would be wrong and you are right.

You didnt come here to view others opinions on the matter you came to impose yours. Sounds like religion to me.. just by any other name.
Yes, Im the leader of my own personality cult.
 

Core

Fascinating...
I never flaunted with my degrees, or even claimed to have one in Psychology. All I said was due a few years of Social Psychology and they will no doubt tell you all about the diffusion of responsibility and similar effects. I got all of that in my first year, so no doubt you too.




Now this is a better instance of pot calling the kettle black. I havent heard you ask much questions either, instead only imposing your opinion as well.


What does that have to do with me or everyone who is actually a psychologist? Im just saying what Psychologists are saying (at least, judging by my first year of psychology). They have done tons of studies to these effects and you just barge in say they are wrong and you are right. Okay, and Im to believe that?


Right, closest to the truth? What truth? How do you know its the truth? If its the truth, then why are you the only one who knows its the truth?

In order for me to accept your proposition on why humans behave in a certain way, I first have accept that you somehow know THE TRUTH. And from that truth you have derived theoretical answers. So, instead of relying on the experts who made it their lifes work to understand human behavior, we have here someone who claims to know THE TRUTH and because of that he can work his way back to the reasons why there is a diffusion of responsibility. How did you get to THE TRUTH? Did it suddenly occur to you? Do you have any proof that it is indeed THE TRUTH?

You have given me zero reasons to believe that you somehow know THE TRUTH (hell I dont even know THE TRUTH about what) or that it has any relevance to what we were discussing. Sorry, but I put my trust with the people who's job it is to understand humans.



Nero and Bush. Well sorry but I really dont see what they have in common.

As for the system, that was my point all along. The Rome that fell DIDNT HAVE A SYSTEM ANYMORE! It had been plundered by said dictators who corrupted it just so they could get away with their ridiculous stuff. And even then, the system of Rome and America only has some superficial resemblances. Its just fallacious to say that the Roman Republic is the same as the American republic in the way its institutions work or even exist.

And on top of that, I never heard you mention the government itself as well. All you provided as evidence were some symbols.


Go talk to someone who knows me a bit better then you do. I will admit Im wrong when you prove me wrong. Im not gonna admit that Im wrong just because you say Im wrong, without providing even a half way believable or even logical argument for why I would be wrong and you are right.


Yes, Im the leader of my own personality cult.

I did I talked to a few people here about you.
Armchair psychology or pop psychology doesnt fly around here anymore. Unless you are constantly learning psychology as a lifeswork and know why there are so many differences in opinion on the matter you cannot bring that rhetoric bullshit here.
I am sorry but thats just the way that arguing works.

It was once said that it is easier to prove god doesnt exist simply by asking: How do you prove god doesnt exist if you dont?
Popper and his advanced fallacy have given those that argue the impression that everything except what you believe is wrong based on cognitive bias. You should look that up.

Yes I am opinionated. Yes I dont provide proof most of the goddamn time. Neither do you, once you start. I will aswell, ok?
 

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
I did I talked to a few people here about you.
Armchair psychology or pop psychology doesnt fly around here anymore. Unless you are constantly learning psychology as a lifeswork and know why there are so many differences in opinion on the matter you cannot bring that rhetoric bullshit here.
I am sorry but thats just the way that arguing works.
Did you now? Interesting, what did they say?

And well, is it your life work to study human behavior and if so, have you discovered a link to the fact that we have rules and laws? If so, surely you could link me to a peer reviewed article where you describe this link and the way you have found it.

It was once said that it is easier to prove god doesnt exist simply by asking: How do you prove god doesnt exist if you dont?
Popper and his advanced fallacy have given those that argue the impression that everything except what you believe is wrong based on cognitive bias. You should look that up.
Ah yes, however, I dont believe that Im the only one that is right. Far from it. But, that doesnt mean Im gonna switch from opinion and believes everyone tells me something else. No, you will need to convince me first. You have so far, utterly failed to change my mind even a little. You just tell me things and then expect me to believe it. Thats fine, but youre wrong in your expectations. Expect resistance the next time.

Yes I am opinionated. Yes I dont provide proof most of the goddamn time. Neither do you, once you start. I will aswell, ok?
Simple logic would have sufficed. You havent even provided that.
 

Core

Fascinating...
Did you now? Interesting, what did they say?

And well, is it your life work to study human behavior and if so, have you discovered a link to the fact that we have rules and laws? If so, surely you could link me to a peer reviewed article where you describe this link and the way you have found it.


Ah yes, however, I dont believe that Im the only one that is right. Far from it. But, that doesnt mean Im gonna switch from opinion and believes everyone tells me something else. No, you will need to convince me first. You have so far, utterly failed to change my mind even a little. You just tell me things and then expect me to believe it. Thats fine, but youre wrong in your expectations. Expect resistance the next time.


Simple logic would have sufficed. You havent even provided that.

Just what I said before the comment that you posted about me having to talk to others.. that comment did not only come from me.

You do however you wont even entertain the notion that you do not have to full picture. Just that you are not wrong. Thats not how it works x.x

I have provided simple logic on many number of things but you have dismissed them because I havent provided you with ABSOLUTE DEFINITIVE proof that you are wrong.
The reason I have to word it like that is because if there is even the slightest chance that what you were saying was even 10%correct then you will dismiss that you were wrong and just claim THATS ANOTHER WAY OF LOOKING AT IT.

Just tell me what kind of proof you need.
 

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
You do however you wont even entertain the notion that you do not have to full picture. Just that you are not wrong. Thats not how it works x.x
And how do you know that? You dont know, you just assume things about me.

Besides, do you entertain such a notion. Judging by your use of THE TRUTH Id say no. But thats just assuming on my part.

I have provided simple logic on many number of things but you have dismissed them because I havent provided you with ABSOLUTE DEFINITIVE proof that you are wrong.
The reason I have to word it like that is because if there is even the slightest chance that what you were saying was even 10%correct then you will dismiss that you were wrong and just claim THATS ANOTHER WAY OF LOOKING AT IT.

Just tell me what kind of proof you need.
When talking about human behavior and the reason for it, I want to see proof in the form journals or something like that. Then I will entertain the notion that you might be correct, though before I fully believe you, it needs to be mainstream first. As in, it appears in every textbook about social psychology.

When talking about room, fitting logic combined with some historical facts will suffice. So far you have pointed out some similar iconography but even that doesnt entirely fly. The American eagle is the Bald eagle and is native to North America, not Europe. The Roman Aquila is just a regular eagle that can be found in Europe. Sure they are both eagles and no doubt they had the Romans in mind when they adopted the Bald eagle as the national bird of America and not some other animal.
Second, the Roman Empire consisted of several periods with different types of government. You first had the Roman republic and after that you got the Roman empire headed by the Emperor. And as far as I can tell, both periods had completely different governmental structures then the current American republic. If anything, America is at best founded on some of the more romanticized ideals of ancient Rome, but nothing more. Anyways, your argument was that America and Rome are comparable, and that because Rome collapsed, America must also collapse simply because of my statements that anarchism will end up causing another Somalia. Lets first look at how Rome collapsed. The Roman republic ceased to exist when Ceasar took over the place. Then, you had the Roman empire under the Roman emperors. That place collapsed because it was over extended, under attack from all sides, economically weakened and under almost constant mismanagement from petty dictators.
Its gonna take a miracle before some president in America declares himself the first Emperor for life of the American empire. Its possible but I highly doubt that will ever happen. As for the second way of collapsing, well, you first need a dictator fucking things up, as well as a whole bunch of other circumstances before it goes down like Rome.

And thats the difference between my comparison between Somalia and anarchism and Rome and America. Where Rome collapsed largely also due to outside circumstances, the current situation in Somalia have almost all been caused by internal circumstances. Imagine that right now a strong government takes place in Somalia with the support of the majority of the people. It can raise an army, fight off the rebels, restore order, try to build up an economy, ensure that food aid is delivered where its needed, starts up projects to get the farms running again. Etc. This is all within the power of a government. Now imagine a rich country that suddenly switches over to anarchism with the majority supporting it. So, that means there is no longer a central government, and that everything is run by local committees. Property no longer exists so everyone can use everything and live anywhere he wants. Thievery no longer exists, simply because you no longer can technically steal stuff. Sounds nice, but there are some problems. Economically, you just killed yourself. Large parts of the infrastructure can no longer be paid for, so you get power outages, roads start to fall in disrepair, not to mention things like airports and and trainrail systems. To expensive to be paid for by several smaller communities. Shitty infrastructure means companies arent gonna invest in your country, the are gonna move away, causing rising unemployment. Rising unemployment means more people needing to use social security. But that only works for some time before that becomes impossible to maintain as well. People get poor, cant pay for food, they get angry. Get enough angry people together, and you get a riot.

Now the nightmare scenario. Central government is gone, and somewhere some guy with enough personality rallies a bunch of people to his cause, namely, he wants power and now is the ultimate time for him to get it. He plunders an old army storage, gets guns and munition and trains his followers how to use it. He gets some cars, drives to the neighboring village and demand they work for him now or he starts killing people. He has guns, they dont, they have no choice. Before you know it, you have some local warlord making good use of the fact that there isnt a centralized government with a military to stop him.
Somewhere else, some other guy has the same bright idea and does the same thing. The warlords clash, and you got yourself a civil war. The war disrupts the already unstable balance of food produced and mouths to feed and before you know it, people are starving because warlords are hording all the food for themselves causing shortages elsewhere.

Anarchism, because it is voluntarily, is just begging for humans to use their brains to screw the system over and get more pie then the rest. Anarchism rewards those who screw over the system because the rest that follows the system are almost defenseless against those that dont.
 

Core

Fascinating...
Anarchism, because it is voluntarily, is just begging for humans to use their brains to screw the system over and get more pie then the rest. Anarchism rewards those who screw over the system because the rest that follows the system are almost defenseless against those that dont.

Alright for a change, I read everything you said instead of skimming it.

Judging from your post(and I am not trying to assume anything here if I do I apologize) It sounds like without having the government in full control of everything.. and was able to monitor everything we do, that a scenario like a guy banding together a group of men to raid military weapon storages(which in the US isnt even required to get an arsenal.. but ill entertain the idea that it is required) is not possible or less possible?
Is that correct?

If yes... Would it be possible that in your mind(I am not saying its proven or disproven just a question) you feel safe in the current system and that there is enough deterrent and lack of hatred for the government that people would have no REASON to do gather arms and do this?

If yes... Do you admit that if you believe a man who is not governed by laws has absolutely no morality or... moral code that would stop him from knowing what in our society is right or wrong?

If no... you are a hypocrite and have contradicted yourself.

If yes.. then you are naive and would fare better in the current system as a sheep.

Now final addendum: If most of your answers are yes to the above except the last I am betting you would be itching to say: BUT ALL IT REQUIRES IS ONE MAN WITH PERSONALITY!
And my response to that is... Doesnt matter if theres government, god, laws or anything of the sort cause it could happen right now you are however under the assumption that you are safe and therefore cant imagine it.
But one man with the right connections, the right assets and the right backing.. could accomplish all of that you used weapons caches as an example... but thats quite crude one could make it terrorist attacks or... political coup's or a good old fashion coup d'etat...

In regards to that last statement of yours...
Doesnt matter if its voluntary or not there anyone trying toget ahead will use their brains to screw the system.. maybe in small ways.. or maybe in large. 99% of convicted felons have committed a previous crimes for which they have not been convicted. That means almost every convict has commited a crime and gotten away with it. The system only works because they were greedy and tried again. No one is ever defenseless no one is ever all powerful. 3 bullets is all it takes. Iif you believe criminals kill because they want to.. you're wrong about 95% are because they believe its necessary.

Was that a better way of responding to you? Or do I need to list certain specific proofs... and if so please list what kind and what fashion must be presented.
 

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
Alright for a change, I read everything you said instead of skimming it.

Judging from your post(and I am not trying to assume anything here if I do I apologize) It sounds like without having the government in full control of everything.. and was able to monitor everything we do, that a scenario like a guy banding together a group of men to raid military weapon storages(which in the US isnt even required to get an arsenal.. but ill entertain the idea that it is required) is not possible or less possible?
Is that correct?
Almost. Its easily possible to get guns today, sure. Guns arent the issue really, they are just tools and they were meant to make my example a bit more realistic (I doubt unarmed people are gonna make much of an impression when they try to shake down the community). However, when there is a strong central government, and when I say strong, I dont mean its present everywhere with high tech surveillance, but strong in the sense it enjoys the support of the vast majority of people, the chances become much smaller that someone wants to start a rebellion, let alone that such a rebellion will be popular. Second, a strong government is legitimized by the people to use what is necessary to stop an armed insurgency within its territory. A strong government is indeed, capable of maintaining general order all around the country.

If yes... Would it be possible that in your mind(I am not saying its proven or disproven just a question) you feel safe in the current system and that there is enough deterrent and lack of hatred for the government that people would have no REASON to do gather arms and do this?
Yes, I doubt many people are willing to take up arms against the government within either the US or Europe. Not to say there arent any people who would actually want to take up arms, but they are a insignificant minority.

If yes... Do you admit that if you believe a man who is not governed by laws has absolutely no morality or... moral code that would stop him from knowing what in our society is right or wrong?
Man in general? No, most people probably wont. Still, it takes only a few thugs to terrorize a whole neighborhood, even in a society that has laws. Do you really think that group of thugs will decrease when laws disappear, poverty increases, and defenses weaken? I believe almost every human being will always choose himself over unknown others, and I believe he will also seek the easiest way to look after himself. Right now, crime is for many simply not worth the risk of getting caught, send to jail or whatever.

If yes.. then you are naive and would fare better in the current system as a sheep.
There is a difference between following the government mindlessly because it is the government and following the government because you understand why it exist and because you agree with its reason to exist.

Now final addendum: If most of your answers are yes to the above except the last I am betting you would be itching to say: BUT ALL IT REQUIRES IS ONE MAN WITH PERSONALITY!
And my response to that is... Doesnt matter if theres government, god, laws or anything of the sort cause it could happen right now you are however under the assumption that you are safe and therefore cant imagine it.
But one man with the right connections, the right assets and the right backing.. could accomplish all of that you used weapons caches as an example... but thats quite crude one could make it terrorist attacks or... political coup's or a good old fashion coup d'etat...
I never said that it was impossible now did I? It is however, far less likely. Having a working government makes it far more difficult to succeed in such an endeavor, while when the country is fractured in small self governing communities who are fractured politically and have almost no means of putting up an effective defense. Well, they would be swept away by a well organized force.

Doesnt matter if its voluntary or not there anyone trying toget ahead will use their brains to screw the system.. maybe in small ways.. or maybe in large. 99% of convicted felons have committed a previous crimes for which they have not been convicted. That means almost every convict has commited a crime and gotten away with it. The system only works because they were greedy and tried again. No one is ever defenseless no one is ever all powerful. 3 bullets is all it takes. Iif you believe criminals kill because they want to.. you're wrong about 95% are because they believe its necessary.
Well, the point was more that a force that aligned itself purely on a voluntary base with the current system can just as easily change their allegiance. There is nothing that stops them from doing it. After all, its voluntarily. If in a government system, a police districts goes rogue, someone somewhere will notice, and he will be able to intervene and stop it. No such fail safes in the Anarchism system.

The point is, some people tend to say that the government is nothing more then an accepted protection racket. The government offers to protect but to do so, it wants taxes. These people are right. The government is nothing more then a legitimized protection racket. However, this protection racket has the monopoly on protection rackets within the country (at least, if its an effective government) and it can ensure that no other protection rackets come along and demand more money from the people. Take out the super big, almost invincible monopoly on protection rackets, and you open the market for a whole lot more. Results could lead from full blown extortion where people have to pay in multiple protection rackets or violence when two rackets clash with each other over territory.


Was that a better way of responding to you? Or do I need to list certain specific proofs... and if so please list what kind and what fashion must be presented.
At least it was much nicer. Go on like this and we can be best of friends, and discussions would either be more fruitful for both of us, or at least we dont hate each other at the end of the day for not agreeing with each other.
 

Core

Fascinating...
Almost. Its easily possible to get guns today, sure. Guns arent the issue really, they are just tools and they were meant to make my example a bit more realistic (I doubt unarmed people are gonna make much of an impression when they try to shake down the community). However, when there is a strong central government, and when I say strong, I dont mean its present everywhere with high tech surveillance, but strong in the sense it enjoys the support of the vast majority of people, the chances become much smaller that someone wants to start a rebellion, let alone that such a rebellion will be popular. Second, a strong government is legitimized by the people to use what is necessary to stop an armed insurgency within its territory. A strong government is indeed, capable of maintaining general order all around the country.

Government or Military? Atleast be direct! dont beat around the Bush! :D

Yes, I doubt many people are willing to take up arms against the government within either the US or Europe. Not to say there arent any people who would actually want to take up arms, but they are a insignificant minority.

Its been said before that it never really matters whether there are laws or not. Rotten apples will grow on any tree. Spray the tree with enough pesticides and all you will have is sour apples.. not rotten but sour.

Man in general? No, most people probably wont. Still, it takes only a few thugs to terrorize a whole neighborhood, even in a society that has laws. Do you really think that group of thugs will decrease when laws disappear, poverty increases, and defenses weaken? I believe almost every human being will always choose himself over unknown others, and I believe he will also seek the easiest way to look after himself. Right now, crime is for many simply not worth the risk of getting caught, send to jail or whatever.

Or is it? There is no death penalty and prison life isnt as bad as they make it out to be.. its still a community ruled by a governing body it just has visible bars instead of invisible lines... no? :) Because criminals know there will be no retaliation from the victims family.. or friends(anti-vigilantism) the worst that will happen is goto prison.

There is a difference between following the government mindlessly because it is the government and following the government because you understand why it exist and because you agree with its reason to exist.

There is a difference between understanding and agreeing. Exousia. Government exist to govern the general populace which originally was intended for the grownups, the powerfull and the royal to maintain equal control over their flock. While this works for everyone willing to abide by there are those that voluntarily choose to live outside it(See for instance Motorclub charters and their reach for anarchism)

I never said that it was impossible now did I? It is however, far less likely. Having a working government makes it far more difficult to succeed in such an endeavor, while when the country is fractured in small self governing communities who are fractured politically and have almost no means of putting up an effective defense. Well, they would be swept away by a well organized force.

This all depends on the amount of freedom you give your subjects. If you give them alot of freedom the risk of a coup will be higher because there is less observation(logically) .If you give them no freedom and handcuff them... the risk should be lower... but its not because they will simply find better ways to conceal it.
(for reference into counter-intel origins I suggest WW1 and 2 in regards to radio transmissions It backs upmy point but in a very elaborate and roundabout way :p)

Well, the point was more that a force that aligned itself purely on a voluntary base with the current system can just as easily change their allegiance. There is nothing that stops them from doing it. After all, its voluntarily. If in a government system, a police districts goes rogue, someone somewhere will notice, and he will be able to intervene and stop it. No such fail safes in the Anarchism system.

I dont see how that is any different now.. People switch sides all the time.. or do you think that governments lead solely to patriotism.. because there are just as many non-patriots as patriots. And in regards to who will notice.. its subjective to the situation and therefore hard to judgeon individual basis without true example.(logical fallacy: argumentum ad ignorantiam)

The point is, some people tend to say that the government is nothing more then an accepted protection racket. The government offers to protect but to do so, it wants taxes. These people are right. The government is nothing more then a legitimized protection racket. However, this protection racket has the monopoly on protection rackets within the country (at least, if its an effective government) and it can ensure that no other protection rackets come along and demand more money from the people. Take out the super big, almost invincible monopoly on protection rackets, and you open the market for a whole lot more. Results could lead from full blown extortion where people have to pay in multiple protection rackets or violence when two rackets clash with each other over territory.

Nothingto add here.. but you didnt really attack anything and you're not wrong :D

At least it was much nicer. Go on like this and we can be best of friends, and discussions would either be more fruitful for both of us, or at least we dont hate each other at the end of the day for not agreeing with each other.
Excellent!
 

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
What a bitch to quote this one was. Anyways...
Government or Military? Atleast be direct! dont beat around the Bush!
How do you mean Government or Military. Any normal state has a military, and in case of an attack or uprising, the Government is legitimized to use it to defend people from harm.

Its been said before that it never really matters whether there are laws or not. Rotten apples will grow on any tree. Spray the tree with enough pesticides and all you will have is sour apples.. not rotten but sour.
Are we all sour apples because we got a government? Well I cant really reply to that. Although it seems to me that the added protection and wealth a government has created is only a positive thing.

Or is it? There is no death penalty and prison life isnt as bad as they make it out to be.. its still a community ruled by a governing body it just has visible bars instead of invisible lines... no? Because criminals know there will be no retaliation from the victims family.. or friends(anti-vigilantism) the worst that will happen is goto prison.
Oh yes, because prison is fun. Living in a little cage, like an animal. No privacy, only a few hours of fresh air a day. The constant threat of getting killed in a fight. And if you misbehave, you go into isolation. Yes yes, a nice place indeed. I prefer my own home with computers and games and internet and the freedom to go where I want, when I want.

But, take away the prison system, and who knows what people might do. For power or for extra personal wealth people can become utterly ruthless.

This all depends on the amount of freedom you give your subjects. If you give them alot of freedom the risk of a coup will be higher because there is less observation(logically) .If you give them no freedom and handcuff them... the risk should be lower... but its not because they will simply find better ways to conceal it.
(for reference into counter-intel origins I suggest WW1 and 2 in regards to radio transmissions It backs upmy point but in a very elaborate and roundabout way :p)
Well thank you for backing my point then. Anarchism is pretty much the most freedom you can have in a society, due to the lack of any police and government institutions telling you what can and cant be done and its voluntary nature. So, yeah, you get the increased risk of a coup. Or several coups. The attempt will be to go back to a system with an organized government again, both to stop the coups and warfare that follows one, and because the people who organize such a coup want all the power themselves.

I dont see how that is any different now.. People switch sides all the time.. or do you think that governments lead solely to patriotism.. because there are just as many non-patriots as patriots. And in regards to who will notice.. its subjective to the situation and therefore hard to judgeon individual basis without true example.(logical fallacy: argumentum ad ignorantiam)
Yes, that might be, but in a government, the side switchers either get fired or imprisoned (if they break the law). Besides, there it happens on a individual basis. Ive never heard of entire armies switching side (at least, not in peace time, and not when they were from a stable country) or entire police districts becoming corrupt at once. Because there are deterents against it and because they are part of a larger organization who can step in when it happens (with the police, Internal Affairs). In Anarchism, there is no country wide police organization, because of the fractured nature of anarchism. So you have local police departments in every little community, each operating on their own. If one of those departments becomes corrupt, who is gonna step in?
 

Core

Fascinating...
What a bitch to quote this one was. Anyways...

How do you mean Government or Military. Any normal state has a military, and in case of an attack or uprising, the Government is legitimized to use it to defend people from harm.


Are we all sour apples because we got a government? Well I cant really reply to that. Although it seems to me that the added protection and wealth a government has created is only a positive thing.


Oh yes, because prison is fun. Living in a little cage, like an animal. No privacy, only a few hours of fresh air a day. The constant threat of getting killed in a fight. And if you misbehave, you go into isolation. Yes yes, a nice place indeed. I prefer my own home with computers and games and internet and the freedom to go where I want, when I want.

But, take away the prison system, and who knows what people might do. For power or for extra personal wealth people can become utterly ruthless.


Well thank you for backing my point then. Anarchism is pretty much the most freedom you can have in a society, due to the lack of any police and government institutions telling you what can and cant be done and its voluntary nature. So, yeah, you get the increased risk of a coup. Or several coups. The attempt will be to go back to a system with an organized government again, both to stop the coups and warfare that follows one, and because the people who organize such a coup want all the power themselves.


Yes, that might be, but in a government, the side switchers either get fired or imprisoned (if they break the law). Besides, there it happens on a individual basis. Ive never heard of entire armies switching side (at least, not in peace time, and not when they were from a stable country) or entire police districts becoming corrupt at once. Because there are deterents against it and because they are part of a larger organization who can step in when it happens (with the police, Internal Affairs). In Anarchism, there is no country wide police organization, because of the fractured nature of anarchism. So you have local police departments in every little community, each operating on their own. If one of those departments becomes corrupt, who is gonna step in?
Mweh were not going to agree here, It is my personal and honest opinion that you are ignorant to the way humans truly operate. You may call me naieve but everytime I try to localize a point you blow it up into massive proportions with examples that have nothing to do with the proposed ideals claiming THIS IS HOW IT WILL TURN OUT. Without any proof.
This is currently battle of opinions simply if not only because your view is that humans need to to have their hands cuffed and their wings clipped in order to be peaceful. I do not view the general populace like that. I dont have the strength or the time at this point to take this down to a fight about human nature. If the current system makes you feel safe and secure... stfu and enjoy it while it lasts :)
 

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
Mweh were not going to agree here, It is my personal and honest opinion that you are ignorant to the way humans truly operate. You may call me naieve but everytime I try to localize a point you blow it up into massive proportions with examples that have nothing to do with the proposed ideals claiming THIS IS HOW IT WILL TURN OUT. Without any proof.
This is currently battle of opinions simply if not only because your view is that humans need to to have their hands cuffed and their wings clipped in order to be peaceful. I do not view the general populace like that. I dont have the strength or the time at this point to take this down to a fight about human nature. If the current system makes you feel safe and secure... stfu and enjoy it while it lasts :)
Ah, what can I say, Im rather cynical when it comes to these kinds of things. Still, lets just agree to disagree then.
 

Core

Fascinating...
Ah, what can I say, Im rather cynical when it comes to these kinds of things. Still, lets just agree to disagree then.

Cynical is not the word. And my world sure as fck isnt rosecolored but on this particular instance where everyone says its a necessary evil I wholeheartedly disagree. But yea lets :)

Hmm I was thinking... One last jolt :p

If there were no laws to hold you back would you turn in the monster that you fear or are you afraid that might... knowing what humans are capable of?
 

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
Cynical is not the word. And my world sure as fck isnt rosecolored but on this particular instance where everyone says its a necessary evil I wholeheartedly disagree. But yea lets :)

Hmm I was thinking... One last jolt :p

If there were no laws to hold you back would you turn in the monster that you fear or are you afraid that might... knowing what humans are capable of?
Myself personally? I honestly cant say. I dont rule out that I might try to use the situation to my own advantage as much as possible.

And well, I might go in a murderous rage if it means that internet can no longer be supported or electricity. I wouldnt want to live in a world without those two things.
 

Core

Fascinating...
Myself personally? I honestly cant say. I dont rule out that I might try to use the situation to my own advantage as much as possible.

And well, I might go in a murderous rage if it means that internet can no longer be supported or electricity. I wouldnt want to live in a world without those two things.

That explains why you are cynical you dont know yourself :p

AND WHY THE HELL WOULD THERE BE NO INTERNET OR ELECTRICITY WTF!? WHAT KIND OF IDEAS ARE YOU PULLING OUT OF THAT HEAD OF YOURS IS ANARCHISM EQUAL TO POST-APOCALYPTIC WASTELAND!?