Humanzee
- Thread starter Kaze Araki
- Start date
I can see no direct implication on humanity a Humanzee will bring, but it will rock the scientific and religious world, without a doubt. The creation of a parahuman such as the Humanzee would be a sure sign that human-animal hybrids are surely possible. Then it's up to an individual's personal sentiments whether he percieves this as a good or bad thing. For one, people concerned with research ethics will be horrified due to the possibility of experiments on humans to be carried out on a larger scale in the future. Religious leaders will be horrified, because generally a human-animal hybrid would be unthinkable, sacrilegeous even, to any religion, because religion believes in the purity of the human soul, and to have a sub-human hybrid would be chaos. It parallels the situation between African Americans and White Americans in the early 1900s, where whites considered blacks to be inferior, but those of mixed ethnicity to be even worse.
Also, depending on the degree of human sentience this parahuman shows, concerns might arise about the possibility of a new sub-species of hybridized humans living alongside humanity itself. There is no doubt that if the cross-breeding of humans and animals is continued, discrimination will arise against these supposedly "inferior" beings.
Other than that, the possibilies are endless. Researchers could use these parahumans, basically animals with the power of speech, to find out more on how animals think. What do they think of us killing them for food? What do they think about the human species as a whole?
However, I personally believe that the case scientists delving more into parahuman research is unlikely, due to the fact that another branch of human evolution, generally regarded as far superior to humanity, has been recently getting increased attention. That is, human-machine hybrids, ala Cyborgs. It is unlikely that scientists will choose to pursue both paths of human experimentation, and they will probably stick to cyborgs.
But I digress. I'm keen to read the opinions of other members here on this highly intriguing topic.
Also, depending on the degree of human sentience this parahuman shows, concerns might arise about the possibility of a new sub-species of hybridized humans living alongside humanity itself. There is no doubt that if the cross-breeding of humans and animals is continued, discrimination will arise against these supposedly "inferior" beings.
Other than that, the possibilies are endless. Researchers could use these parahumans, basically animals with the power of speech, to find out more on how animals think. What do they think of us killing them for food? What do they think about the human species as a whole?
However, I personally believe that the case scientists delving more into parahuman research is unlikely, due to the fact that another branch of human evolution, generally regarded as far superior to humanity, has been recently getting increased attention. That is, human-machine hybrids, ala Cyborgs. It is unlikely that scientists will choose to pursue both paths of human experimentation, and they will probably stick to cyborgs.
But I digress. I'm keen to read the opinions of other members here on this highly intriguing topic.
Planet of the Apes? I dont know, why would we even try to create such an abomination against nature? Like Hadriel suggested, I suppose it would cause an uproar within the scientific community regarding ethics, as well as a political and religious uproar, much for the same reason. Such a creature is an abomination against nature itself. If nature wanted us to be able to have some sort of hybrid, it would have allowed us to have sex with a chimpanzee and create babies that way (like you can cross a tiger and a lion).
And other then the 'because we can' motive, why would we do it? So we get a semi smart ape which we can ask questions about ourselves? Thats a philosophers job. And do we really need such a creatures view on us? It would be twisted anyways. Any question we ask them gets a pointless answer.
Im all about the advancement of humanity, but I seriously doubt that crossing ourselves with...face it....less evolved creatures is an advancement. No, im with Hadriel when he says that research into the merging of man and machine is more likely.
And other then the 'because we can' motive, why would we do it? So we get a semi smart ape which we can ask questions about ourselves? Thats a philosophers job. And do we really need such a creatures view on us? It would be twisted anyways. Any question we ask them gets a pointless answer.
Im all about the advancement of humanity, but I seriously doubt that crossing ourselves with...face it....less evolved creatures is an advancement. No, im with Hadriel when he says that research into the merging of man and machine is more likely.
Unlike God - nature is not anthropomorphic, let alone for it to able to label its very own product as an abomination. Hybridization is a natural phenomena known to happens since time immemorial as such that there's really nothing alien, strange nor peculiar about it, save for our ego that sees any attempts to corrupt the purity of our species as sacrilege. Unbeknown to the lay folks, but well understood among Paleontologists is the theory that Homo Sapiens-Neanderthals hybridization is a common occurrence as their territories overlapped each other.
http://www.eva.mpg.de/neandertal/press/presskit-neandertal/pdf/PR_MPI_Neandertal_EN.pdf
If we were to use the so called "abomination" logic, than it is justifiable for us to label ourselves as an abomination to nature itself.
[quote name='Kaze Araki']Unlike God - nature is not anthropomorphic, let alone for it to able to label its very own product as an abomination. Hybridization is a natural phenomena known to happens since time immemorial as such that there's really nothing alien, strange nor peculiar about it, save for our ego that sees any attempts to corrupt the purity of our species as sacrilege. Unbeknown to the lay folks, but well understood among Paleontologists is the theory that Homo Sapiens-Neanderthals hybridization is a common occurrence as their territories overlapped each other.
http://www.eva.mpg.de/neandertal/press/presskit-neandertal/pdf/PR_MPI_Neandertal_EN.pdf
If we were to use the so called "abomination" logic, than it is justifiable for us to label ourselves as an abomination to nature itself.[/QUOTE]
I am well aware that hybridization is natural and possible within nature. But there is a difference between a humanzee and the naturally occurring hybrids. These naturally occurring hybrids are formed when the two different species have sex and they get offspring this way. What you are suggesting however, cannot form naturally. At least, there is no evidence that suggests that it will. The most direct test done by some Russian back in the 20's and 30's had him inject human sperm into female chimpanzees and they didnt got pregnant. Thus, its not natural. If it happens, it will require human modification first, thus making the whole thing artificial, unnatural, and due to the blatant disregards of ethics, an abomination.
Unless you can create a humanzee by having a human have sex with a chimpanzee (or the clinical equivalent of sex), I believe it to be a abomination against nature, as well as decency and ethics.
http://www.eva.mpg.de/neandertal/press/presskit-neandertal/pdf/PR_MPI_Neandertal_EN.pdf
If we were to use the so called "abomination" logic, than it is justifiable for us to label ourselves as an abomination to nature itself.[/QUOTE]
I am well aware that hybridization is natural and possible within nature. But there is a difference between a humanzee and the naturally occurring hybrids. These naturally occurring hybrids are formed when the two different species have sex and they get offspring this way. What you are suggesting however, cannot form naturally. At least, there is no evidence that suggests that it will. The most direct test done by some Russian back in the 20's and 30's had him inject human sperm into female chimpanzees and they didnt got pregnant. Thus, its not natural. If it happens, it will require human modification first, thus making the whole thing artificial, unnatural, and due to the blatant disregards of ethics, an abomination.
Unless you can create a humanzee by having a human have sex with a chimpanzee (or the clinical equivalent of sex), I believe it to be a abomination against nature, as well as decency and ethics.
[quote name='Kaze Araki']Unlike God - nature is not anthropomorphic, let alone for it to able to label its very own product as an abomination. Hybridization is a natural phenomena known to happens since time immemorial as such that there's really nothing alien, strange nor peculiar about it, save for our ego that sees any attempts to corrupt the purity of our species as sacrilege. Unbeknown to the lay folks, but well understood among Paleontologists is the theory that Homo Sapiens-Neanderthals hybridization is a common occurrence as their territories overlapped each other.
http://www.eva.mpg.de/neandertal/press/presskit-neandertal/pdf/PR_MPI_Neandertal_EN.pdf
If we were to use the so called "abomination" logic, than it is justifiable for us to label ourselves as an abomination to nature itself.[/QUOTE]
Ignoring the credibility of homo sapien-Neanderthal hybrids, there is nothing "natural" about human-chimpanzee hybrids.
http://www.eva.mpg.de/neandertal/press/presskit-neandertal/pdf/PR_MPI_Neandertal_EN.pdf
If we were to use the so called "abomination" logic, than it is justifiable for us to label ourselves as an abomination to nature itself.[/QUOTE]
Ignoring the credibility of homo sapien-Neanderthal hybrids, there is nothing "natural" about human-chimpanzee hybrids.
And, as noex argued, there is nothing natural about this hybridisation, since it is an in-vitro(emphasizing genes and chromosomes here) experimentation to begin with; not a natural, and will never be made by natural means. And yes, it will create a commotion amongst the religious and biocentrists, no doubt.
Bioethics isn't my field, but it will open a way for us to develop new things - this hybrid could be used for human research, and can be used as a weapon.
Bioethics isn't my field, but it will open a way for us to develop new things - this hybrid could be used for human research, and can be used as a weapon.
It's not natural that's for sure. Human and Chimpanzee are very different and the hybridization will never happen in natural way. Not only that the child of the hybridization of human and chimpanzee pretty much an abomination against nature. Just look at Biomega's picture. You can see how wrong it is.
Why would we do it? what would we gain from it? what good would it cause? What are the consequences of it? All I could think is the human/chimpanzee hybrid's will bring more negative effects.
Why would we do it? what would we gain from it? what good would it cause? What are the consequences of it? All I could think is the human/chimpanzee hybrid's will bring more negative effects.
[quote name='Kaze Araki']Homo Sapiens-Neanderthals Hybridization has been proven via genome sequence (see my source). If Humanzee is an abomination, that would also imply that all non-pure Africans in this world are also an abomination, because only the pure Africans did not interbred with Neanderthals.[/QUOTE]
The issue with that logic is, inbreeding occurs natually. Humanzees do not.
The issue with that logic is, inbreeding occurs natually. Humanzees do not.
[quote name='noex1337']The issue with that logic is, inbreeding occurs natually. Humanzees do not.[/QUOTE]
Interbreeding can also occur naturally between human and chimpanzee. The only obstacle is societal repercussion itself. Regardless of whether the interbreeding successful or not (chances are there), Zoophilia is illegal in most part of the world, and especially taboo when it comes to human-chimpanzee relationship.
Interbreeding can also occur naturally between human and chimpanzee. The only obstacle is societal repercussion itself. Regardless of whether the interbreeding successful or not (chances are there), Zoophilia is illegal in most part of the world, and especially taboo when it comes to human-chimpanzee relationship.
[quote name='Kaze Araki']Interbreeding can also occur naturally between human and chimpanzee. The only obstacle is societal repercussion itself. Regardless of whether the interbreeding successful or not (chances are there), Zoophilia is illegal in most part of the world, and especially taboo when it comes to human-chimpanzee relationship.[/QUOTE]
Well, then I'm going to predict that the social repercussions of this would be strong enough to destroy any further chance of parahuman research in the future, due mainly to religion. A good majority of the world's population has a religion, and religions will probably condemn this as it is what they perceive as a distortion of human purity. This religious backlash will no doubt cause countries whose main governmental backing is religion to denounce parahumans as "abominations". Combined with the backlash from human rights activists, I think it's safe to say that the development of parahumans will be quashed from the onset.
Well, then I'm going to predict that the social repercussions of this would be strong enough to destroy any further chance of parahuman research in the future, due mainly to religion. A good majority of the world's population has a religion, and religions will probably condemn this as it is what they perceive as a distortion of human purity. This religious backlash will no doubt cause countries whose main governmental backing is religion to denounce parahumans as "abominations". Combined with the backlash from human rights activists, I think it's safe to say that the development of parahumans will be quashed from the onset.
[quote name='Kaze Araki']Interbreeding can also occur naturally between human and chimpanzee. The only obstacle is societal repercussion itself. Regardless of whether the interbreeding successful or not (chances are there), Zoophilia is illegal in most part of the world, and especially taboo when it comes to human-chimpanzee relationship.[/QUOTE]
Hold it right there. A) There has never ever been a human-chimpanzee hybrid. So no, the humanzee is not that natural. B) The only time they directly tried to impregnate chimpanzees with human Sperm, it resulted in no pregnancies. So again, its not natural. Regardless of any social stigma that might be attached to zoophilia.
No, as far as the scientific data regarding human-chimpanzee hybrids stands for now, there is no evidence that suggests its possible. Maybe later, when we sufficiently tamper with our genes and ape genes and create it in a lab.
[quote name='Hadriel']
Well, then I'm going to predict that the social repercussions of this would be strong enough to destroy any further chance of parahuman research in the future, due mainly to religion. A good majority of the world's population has a religion, and religions will probably condemn this as it is what they perceive as a distortion of human purity. This religious backlash will no doubt cause countries whose main governmental backing is religion to denounce parahumans as "abominations". Combined with the backlash from human rights activists, I think it's safe to say that the development of parahumans will be quashed from the onset.[/QUOTE]
Not just a religious backlash. There will probably be a huge uproar from the scientific community itself. This would spark a serious debate about what can ethically still be researched and what not. And I doubt a lot of scientists would agree to this kind thing. Mainly because there is also no direct benefit from researching this. I mean, why would we do this, other then to satisfy scientific curiosity? There is no direct benefit or even a link to a possible benefit in some other field. No cures for cancer or some other nasty disease or any hint that such a hybrid would be part of a solution to this. This just seems science for the hell of it, without any proper justification.
Hold it right there. A) There has never ever been a human-chimpanzee hybrid. So no, the humanzee is not that natural. B) The only time they directly tried to impregnate chimpanzees with human Sperm, it resulted in no pregnancies. So again, its not natural. Regardless of any social stigma that might be attached to zoophilia.
No, as far as the scientific data regarding human-chimpanzee hybrids stands for now, there is no evidence that suggests its possible. Maybe later, when we sufficiently tamper with our genes and ape genes and create it in a lab.
[quote name='Hadriel']
Well, then I'm going to predict that the social repercussions of this would be strong enough to destroy any further chance of parahuman research in the future, due mainly to religion. A good majority of the world's population has a religion, and religions will probably condemn this as it is what they perceive as a distortion of human purity. This religious backlash will no doubt cause countries whose main governmental backing is religion to denounce parahumans as "abominations". Combined with the backlash from human rights activists, I think it's safe to say that the development of parahumans will be quashed from the onset.[/QUOTE]
Not just a religious backlash. There will probably be a huge uproar from the scientific community itself. This would spark a serious debate about what can ethically still be researched and what not. And I doubt a lot of scientists would agree to this kind thing. Mainly because there is also no direct benefit from researching this. I mean, why would we do this, other then to satisfy scientific curiosity? There is no direct benefit or even a link to a possible benefit in some other field. No cures for cancer or some other nasty disease or any hint that such a hybrid would be part of a solution to this. This just seems science for the hell of it, without any proper justification.
There has never been a human-chimpanzee hybrid does not equal Humanzee is not that natural (whatever the latter suppose to mean). Zebroid are far more distantly related than Humanzee, and yet hybridization is still feasible. Therefore the likeliness for Humanzee should be higher because of the extreme DNA sequence similarities between human and chimpanzee. If natural mating is allowable, given enough time and interbreeding population, foreseeable results would not be far fetch.
[quote name='Kaze Araki']There has never been a human-chimpanzee hybrid does not equal Humanzee is not that natural (whatever the latter suppose to mean). Zebroid are far more distantly related than Humanzee, and yet hybridization is still feasible. Therefore the likeliness for Humanzee should be higher because of the extreme DNA sequence similarities between human and chimpanzee. If natural mating is allowable, given enough time and interbreeding population, foreseeable results would not be far fetch.[/QUOTE]
True, but the question is, would humanity allow it? I can think of many reasons why people would rather not crossbreed with animals.
True, but the question is, would humanity allow it? I can think of many reasons why people would rather not crossbreed with animals.
[quote name='Hadriel']
True, but the question is, would humanity allow it? I can think of many reasons why people would rather not crossbreed with animals.[/QUOTE]
Humanity wouldn't allow it. I'm sure of it. One of the reason would be why would they crossbreed with apes if they could breed with fellow human. We're a being with intelligence and that put us on whole different level than animal.
True, but the question is, would humanity allow it? I can think of many reasons why people would rather not crossbreed with animals.[/QUOTE]
Humanity wouldn't allow it. I'm sure of it. One of the reason would be why would they crossbreed with apes if they could breed with fellow human. We're a being with intelligence and that put us on whole different level than animal.
[quote name='Hadriel']
True, but the question is, would humanity allow it? I can think of many reasons why people would rather not crossbreed with animals.[/QUOTE]
And we arrive at my opening post.
As for the claim; "...there is no evidence that suggests its possible.", this is a potentially misleading characterization since all the attempt so far were very limited and in fact later prevented.
Considering the chromosomal data, and that humans and chimpanzees shared a common ancestor subsequent to the separation of the gorilla lineage, hybridisation between gorillas and chimpanzees would be as plausible as that between gorillas and humans, and arguably (!) less ethically fraught. For quite some time, there have been suggestions that such hybrids exist, but these have turned out to be either unusual-looking chimpanzees or adult male gorillas which have never developed a sagittal crest. The most persistent candidates for such hybrids are what have been called the koolookamba; two authors (Cousins 1980; Shea 1984) have independently examined the evidence and concluded very firmly that koolookambas are simply large, black chimpanzees with some superficially gorilla like facial features, such as large brow ridges and wide, padded nostrils.
Up to now we have no evidence of hybrids between gorillas and either chimpanzees or humans. All we can say is that it does theoretically seem possible, because on any criterion - anatomical, psychological, genetic, geological - we are very close indeed.
Source: http://www.berggorilla.de/english/gjournal/texte/32mensch-gorilla-groves.html
True, but the question is, would humanity allow it? I can think of many reasons why people would rather not crossbreed with animals.[/QUOTE]
And we arrive at my opening post.
As for the claim; "...there is no evidence that suggests its possible.", this is a potentially misleading characterization since all the attempt so far were very limited and in fact later prevented.
Considering the chromosomal data, and that humans and chimpanzees shared a common ancestor subsequent to the separation of the gorilla lineage, hybridisation between gorillas and chimpanzees would be as plausible as that between gorillas and humans, and arguably (!) less ethically fraught. For quite some time, there have been suggestions that such hybrids exist, but these have turned out to be either unusual-looking chimpanzees or adult male gorillas which have never developed a sagittal crest. The most persistent candidates for such hybrids are what have been called the koolookamba; two authors (Cousins 1980; Shea 1984) have independently examined the evidence and concluded very firmly that koolookambas are simply large, black chimpanzees with some superficially gorilla like facial features, such as large brow ridges and wide, padded nostrils.
Up to now we have no evidence of hybrids between gorillas and either chimpanzees or humans. All we can say is that it does theoretically seem possible, because on any criterion - anatomical, psychological, genetic, geological - we are very close indeed.
Source: http://www.berggorilla.de/english/gjournal/texte/32mensch-gorilla-groves.html
[quote name='Kaze Araki']There has never been a human-chimpanzee hybrid does not equal Humanzee is not that natural (whatever the latter suppose to mean). Zebroid are far more distantly related than Humanzee, and yet hybridization is still feasible. Therefore the likeliness for Humanzee should be higher because of the extreme DNA sequence similarities between human and chimpanzee. If natural mating is allowable, given enough time and interbreeding population, foreseeable results would not be far fetch.[/QUOTE]
Yeah but the fact remains there has never been a documented case of a human-chimpanzee hybrid and when they tried to make on in a lab, it utterly failed. All the evidence we have now says its not possible, and because all the evidence suggests that its not possible, I will regard it as unnatural. Until they do actually manage to breed a Humanzee the 'natural' way (that is, either get a women pregnant from Chimpanzee sperm or get a female Chimpanzee pregnant from human sperm) your suggestion that Humanzee's are somehow natural if they ever were to occur is just speculation. No, before you can call something 'natural' you will first need proof, no matter how likely it seems.
Yeah, but where does it say its natural? I believe it to be possible as well given the right circumstances, but until it actually happens, it remains unnatural and impossible. Something isnt true until proven otherwise, likewise, something isnt possible until its proven to be possible.
Yeah but the fact remains there has never been a documented case of a human-chimpanzee hybrid and when they tried to make on in a lab, it utterly failed. All the evidence we have now says its not possible, and because all the evidence suggests that its not possible, I will regard it as unnatural. Until they do actually manage to breed a Humanzee the 'natural' way (that is, either get a women pregnant from Chimpanzee sperm or get a female Chimpanzee pregnant from human sperm) your suggestion that Humanzee's are somehow natural if they ever were to occur is just speculation. No, before you can call something 'natural' you will first need proof, no matter how likely it seems.
Yeah, but where does it say its natural? I believe it to be possible as well given the right circumstances, but until it actually happens, it remains unnatural and impossible. Something isnt true until proven otherwise, likewise, something isnt possible until its proven to be possible.
To cut the story short, please do show me the evidences that it's not possible. As for the "lab claim", please explain to me the reason why they fail, because it is crucial for me to seal your argument once and for all.
As for your "natural" claim, what does "right circumstances" mean? Also, your wording are contradictory at best. First you say it is possible, but later claim it as impossible. I need Hadriel's expertise here.