Feminism

[noex1337]

[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']

That doesn't concern me. I was referring to the sect that typically gets abortions. If my target is 30% of the lower class I'm not concerned with the other 70% as it has nothing to do with my argument.

[/QUOTE]

That is not what you said. Check your post again and revise if that was your intended argument.



[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']

You'll need to explain that to me.

[/QUOTE]

[lexus] did it for me. The lower class is the working force behind our country.





[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']

Are you serious? Are you serious? Noex, buddy, you can't really believe that. Even in a democracy there is still a rampant system of Elitism running throughout. I find it hard to believe that you are actually an American. Do you not see how each generation the upper echelons of society remain in power? Do you not see how each generation the rich remain rich and the poor remain poor? Do you not see how the same classes, same demographics that have been on top are always on top? America was founded by rich, white, men, and they ruled the country. Despite being the most diverse country on earth, America is still ruled by rich, white, men. You have allowed this system to trick you into thinking that you have a say in government and that democracy means equality for everyone. You are terribly mistaken my friend.

[/QUOTE]

The system is flawed, I will admit. However, If the government does not appease the masses a revolution is eminent. Listening to some of the concerns of the common man is one of the ways to appease the masses. That being said, our system isn't pure democracy. It's the estranged lovechild of democracy, republicanism, and oligarchy. In democracy, the voices of all need to be heard, especially if that voice is the majority.



[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']

The biggest corporations, the most powerful figures in America, the House, Congress, and so forth are all controlled by the same class that has been in control since this countries infancy, i.e., rich, white, men. Elites from the European standpoint. I commend you my friend for challenging me but let's dispense with opinions and let's get real. Do you think, with any real logic, that a poor kid can really grow up and inact change in American politics? Do you really think for an instant that someone who is born in a lower class can change this country?

[/QUOTE]

Yes, I do believe. Not only that, but I believe someone who is born in a lower class has the capability to change the world. There's definitely a lower probability but it's still possible. Life is a strange game of chance.

 

[-lexus-]

[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']

That doesn't concern me. I was referring to the sect that typically gets abortions. If my target is 30% of the lower class I'm not concerned with the other 70% as it has nothing to do with my argument.[/QUOTE]

So youll base your argument on a tiny minority. So you say that a tiny faction of the entire population is irrelevant and that they should not be heard. But feminism isnt just coming from that tiny faction, it runs through the entire population and age groups. In fact, I believe that the tiny faction you are referring to is in general far more conservative then feminist. Feminists do tend to have some higher education. They are more often then not, part of the elite you were talking about.

You'll need to explain that to me.

Who do you think that does all the shitty jobs in the service industry. Who do you think are the guys that get your trash and serve you at the WallMart or something similar. They are the miners, and the guys that work in the factories. And they spend money on clothes, technology, etc. They consume, therefor they contribute.



Thats the lower class for you. That tiny group of people that lives of wellfare, well, they still buy stuff, so they contribute again.



And again, they are not the ones protesting the most for feminism. No, that are those elites again.

Are you serious? Are you serious? Noex, buddy, you can't really believe that. Even in a democracy there is still a rampant system of Elitism running throughout. I find it hard to believe that you are actually an American. Do you not see how each generation the upper echelons of society remain in power? Do you not see how each generation the rich remain rich and the poor remain poor? Do you not see how the same classes, same demographics that have been on top are always on top? America was founded by rich, white, men, and they ruled the country. Despite being the most diverse country on earth, America is still ruled by rich, white, men. You have allowed this system to trick you into thinking that you have a say in government and that democracy means equality for everyone. You are terribly mistaken my friend.



The biggest corporations, the most powerful figures in America, the House, Congress, and so forth are all controlled by the same class that has been in control since this countries infancy, i.e., rich, white, men. Elites from the European standpoint. I commend you my friend for challenging me but let's dispense with opinions and let's get real. Do you think, with any real logic, that a poor kid can really grow up and inact change in American politics? Do you really think for an instant that someone who is born in a lower class can change this country?

Oh, and thats why there is currently a black guy as president and thats why there are female senators and female ministers or whatever you call those in America. Uhuh, that would have been unthinkable a few decades ago. So, I suppose that the monopoly of power on rich white men is crumbling since they had to make way for women and black people.



And yes, someone who was born in a low class can make a difference. All he needs to do is work his ass off. Its hard and will take a long time, but its possible. Arnold Schwarzenegger was piss poor when he came to America and he became governor of California. No, reality simply doesnt correspond with the image your sketching there.



Oh yeah, did you never heard of lobbyists? Those arent just rich corporations, but also civil right groups. They definitely have a thing or two to say when it comes to American politics.



Anyways, how is that related to feminism?

 

[noex1337]

[quote name=''[lexus'];68005']

Anyways, how is that related to feminism?[/QUOTE]

I took an intentional detour.

 

[Zero Phoenix]

[lexus] - Do not speak unless spoken to. The grown-ups are discussing real matters.





[quote name='noex1337']That is not what you said. Check your post again and revise if that was your intended argument.[/QUOTE]



Hm, noted. I suppose I should have phrased it differently.





[quote name='noex1337'][lexus] did it for me. The lower class in the working force behind our country.[/QUOTE]



You'd best not throw your hat in the same race as [lexus]. Thinking about the world that simplistically doesn't help anyone. Two issues with your argument, or his. One, is the fact that a substantial amount of lower class citizens don't have jobs. That's part of why they're in the class they are. While it is true that even people with jobs are not able to change their position on the social ladder, that's not the norm. Typically people who have jobs, earn money, which they use to improve their quality of life. As they acquire things like jobs, this tends to lead to cars, houses, and better paying jobs which all contribute to economic growth in function and revenue. A person who is lower class does not usually stay that way "IF" they are working. Secondly, given how many jobs are going overseas you can't say that the lower class is the working force behind our country. In addition, some jobs associated with the lower class ("service" for example) are typically being handed over to immigrants who are typically sending that money back home. And for those jobs that aren't they're being outsourced to other countries. Not only that but nowadays there is a tremendous amount of revenue that comes from trading with other countries. That includes labor my friend. I'll let you try something else.





[quote name='noex1337']The system is flawed, I will admit. However, If the government does not appease the masses a revolution is eminent. Listening to some of the concerns of the common man is one of the ways to appease the masses. That being said, our system isn't pure democracy. It's the estranged lovechild of democracy, republicanism, and oligarchy. In democracy, the voices of all need to be heard, especially if that voice is the majority.[/QUOTE]



Um yeah, that's what I thought. You can't backpedal at this point Noex. First you claim that our country was a democracy and that equality was what this game was all about. When I pointed out the myriad of holes in that line of thought you say, oh well it's not a true democracy but-- No. That's it. You can't claim that America is something it's not and then try and pretend that your argument holds ground. It doesn't. Why? Simple. Because "listening" to the masses does not enact real change. If the government "listens" to the people to appease them but doesn't do anything to address the people's concern in a way that enacts change and improves the lives of everyone then we don't have a democracy Noex. I mean be realistic. If a million Americans say we want FREE healthcare and the government says OK, we'll "listen" then that doesn't mean anything. If millions of Americans say we NEED/WANT jobs and the government says OK we'll "listen" [while still sending jobs overseas] then guess what, nothing changes. Democracy isn't about listening to the masses so they'll shut the hell up. That's not how a real democracy operates.





[quote name='noex1337']Yes, I do believe. Not only that, but I believe someone who is born in a lower class has the capability to change the world. There's definitely a lower probability but it's still possible. Life is a strange game of chance.[/QUOTE]



Then we live in two very, very different worlds. Life is not a game of chance. If you think that then live by it. Go to college and embark on something random. Pick a career that has no measurable growth and try to get your foot in the door on your way to success. Play Black Jack with your future if you really believe that. But of course you won't do that because you know life isn't about chance. Certain things are more likely to occur than others. Certain people are more likely to be successful than others. If you really thought life is a game of chance then you would "live" that mindset.



No one is arguing that someone of lower standing doesn't have the "capability" to change the world. I'm arguing, in keeping witht the real world, that the odds of them acting on that capability, fulfilling that capability is incredibly slim. We've had this discussion before. Nothing is impossible Noex. But we don't concern ourselves with the possible. We concern ourselves with what is probable and therefore more likely.



A person from a lower class, Hispanic family of immigrants becoming president: Not likely.

A person from a higher class, American born white family becoming president: Very likely.

 

[-lexus-]

[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX'][lexus] - Do not speak unless spoken to. The grown-ups are discussing real matters.[/QUOTE]

What, afraid of what I have to say?

You'd best not throw your hat in the same race as [lexus]. Thinking about the world that simplistically doesn't help anyone. Two issues with your argument, or his. One, is the fact that a substantial amount of lower class citizens don't have jobs. That's part of why they're in the class they are. While it is true that even people with jobs are not able to change their position on the social ladder, that's not the norm. Typically people who have jobs, earn money, which they use to improve their quality of life. As they acquire things like jobs, this tends to lead to cars, houses, and better paying jobs which all contribute to economic growth in function and revenue. A person who is lower class does not usually stay that way "IF" they are working. Secondly, given how many jobs are going overseas you can't say that the lower class is the working force behind our country. In addition, some jobs associated with the lower class ("service" for example) are typically being handed over to immigrants who are typically sending that money back home. And for those jobs that aren't they're being outsourced to other countries. Not only that but nowadays there is a tremendous amount of revenue that comes from trading with other countries. That includes labor my friend. I'll let you try something else.

From an economics point of view that makes little sense. Lower class people arent all unemployed and those that work do not always get out of their position. Its possible, sure, but its not the norm that a guy who dropped out of highschool and works at the WalMart makes his way up the social ladder all the way to the top. No, the best he can hope for is maybe being team leader of the local WalMart. Besides, their pay is still limited. Their first needs such as food come first. Sadly for you Americans, minimum wages arent always enough to pay for your first needs. So you need promotion, or else you get stuck. Look up the vicious circle of poverty and youll see that its almost impossible for someone who is poor to become rich, other then through sheer amounts of luck and incredible skill.



Also, trading revenue, you still need people to produce those goods. Lower class people tend to be the guys working in a factory who makes the stuff you trade.

Democracy isn't about listening to the masses so they'll shut the hell up. That's not how a real democracy operates.

And how does a 'real' democracy operate then huh? Entertain me

 

[VivaLaPony Onee-chan]

[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX'][lexus] - Do not speak unless spoken to. The grown-ups are discussing real matters.[/quote]

Who made you the chief of discussion town?

[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']Democracy isn't about listening to the masses so they'll shut the hell up. That's not how a real democracy operates. [/quote]

What you think is Democracy, isnt Democracy at all. Democracy is an idea thats based of a way to lead a country. America's political system is a offspring of Democracy. The point about Democracy is that everyone will have they're say and the majority decide. What your talking about is corruption and that being a rich white kid means you will be successful in life. Its true that a person with money from birth will more easily achieve things, while poor people will have to work for it. It sounds more like your trying to say that you really cant change your social status, which is wrong and your way of thought is ignorant, old and foolish. If you deny yourself that anyone outside social status have the ability to make a change, your indirectly not only being a racist, but you look down on other people for something they couldn't control. So what if they're parents was poor? I might be a damn optimist, but hell! thats what it takes, spirit, guts and hard work.



Still this has taken quite the detour, return to feminism?

 

[noex1337]

[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX'][lexus] - Do not speak unless spoken to. The grown-ups are discussing real matters.

[/QUOTE]

Really? That's not nice Zero.



[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']

You'd best not throw your hat in the same race as [lexus]. Thinking about the world that simplistically doesn't help anyone. Two issues with your argument, or his. One, is the fact that a substantial amount of lower class citizens don't have jobs. That's part of why they're in the class they are. While it is true that even people with jobs are not able to change their position on the social ladder, that's not the norm. Typically people who have jobs, earn money, which they use to improve their quality of life. As they acquire things like jobs, this tends to lead to cars, houses, and better paying jobs which all contribute to economic growth in function and revenue. A person who is lower class does not usually stay that way "IF" they are working. Secondly, given how many jobs are going overseas you can't say that the lower class is the working force behind our country. In addition, some jobs associated with the lower class ("service" for example) are typically being handed over to immigrants who are typically sending that money back home. And for those jobs that aren't they're being outsourced to other countries. Not only that but nowadays there is a tremendous amount of revenue that comes from trading with other countries. That includes labor my friend. I'll let you try something else.

[/QUOTE]

What are the unemployment rates for the lower class? Because as of February 2010, it was 31% meaning that the bolded statement is not quite relevant. And remember, immigrants are still lower class. Furthermore, we can't outsource all of our jobs, especially infrastructure related jobs. So yeah, my point stands. I'll let you try something else.



[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']

Um yeah, that's what I thought. You can't backpedal at this point Noex. First you claim that our country was a democracy and that equality was what this game was all about. When I pointed out the myriad of holes in that line of thought you say, oh well it's not a true democracy but-- No. That's it. You can't claim that America is something it's not and then try and pretend that your argument holds ground. It doesn't.

[/QUOTE]

Not quite. I am especially careful about the way I say things. Check what I said again.

[quote name='noex1337']

3) The mere fact that they are american means that their voice should me heard. This country is founded on democracy, government of the people. If elitism is what you want, then democracy just isn't right for you.

[/QUOTE]

You can't play that game with me. You should know this by now.



[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']

Why? Simple. Because "listening" to the masses does not enact real change. If the government "listens" to the people to appease them but doesn't do anything to address the people's concern in a way that enacts change and improves the lives of everyone then we don't have a democracy Noex. I mean be realistic. If a million Americans say we want FREE healthcare and the government says OK, we'll "listen" then that doesn't mean anything. If millions of Americans say we NEED/WANT jobs and the government says OK we'll "listen" [while still sending jobs overseas] then guess what, nothing changes. Democracy isn't about listening to the masses so they'll shut the hell up. That's not how a real democracy operates.

[/QUOTE]

It seems you aren't familiar with how a true democracy works, because that is exactly what it's about. Either way, that's irrelevant.



[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']

Then we live in two very, very different worlds. Life is not a game of chance. If you think that then live by it. Go to college and embark on something random. Pick a career that has no measurable growth and try to get your foot in the door on your way to success. Play Black Jack with your future if you really believe that. But of course you won't do that because you know life isn't about chance. Certain things are more likely to occur than others. Certain people are more likely to be successful than others. If you really thought life is a game of chance then you would "live" that mindset.

[/QUOTE]

Oh, but will you say that there were never successful people who became successful by chance? Look at bill gates for instance. He spend most of his college career dicking around. Look at where that put him. Granted, he wasn't lower class, but I'm sure you get the point. Also, Schwarzenegger from [lexus]'s example. But that's a interesting point you made in that last couple of lines. How are you going to argue "Certain people are more likely to be successful than others" and then say "Life is not a game of chance"?





[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']

No one is arguing that someone of lower standing doesn't have the "capability" to change the world. I'm arguing, in keeping witht the real world, that the odds of them acting on that capability, fulfilling that capability is incredibly slim. We've had this discussion before. Nothing is impossible Noex. But we don't concern ourselves with the possible. We concern ourselves with what is probable and therefore more likely.

[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I don't always concern myself with what is most probable or likely. One part of being an Engineer is being able to account for all possible likelihoods, otherwise failure will occur. I tend to apply that to my everyday life as well.



[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']

A person from a lower class, Hispanic family of immigrants becoming president: Not likely.

A person from a higher class, American born white family becoming president: Very likely.[/QUOTE]

Once again, life is a game of chance. You can't refute that.

 

[Zero Phoenix]

[quote name='Avan Onee-chan']Who made you the chief of discussion town?[/QUOTE]



I did thank you for asking.







[quote name='Avan Onee-chan']What you think is Democracy, isnt Democracy at all. Democracy is an idea thats based of a way to lead a country. America's political system is a offspring of Democracy. The point about Democracy is that everyone will have they're say and the majority decide.[/QUOTE] Does that answer your question [lexus]?

[quote name='Avan Onee-chan']What your talking about is corruption and that being a rich white kid means you will be successful in life. Its true that a person with money from birth will more easily achieve things, while poor people will have to work for it.[/QUOTE]



Now you're getting it!







[quote name='Avan Onee-chan']It sounds more like your trying to say that you really cant change your social status, which is wrong and your way of thought is ignorant, old and foolish. If you deny yourself that anyone outside social status have the ability to make a change, your indirectly not only being a racist, but you look down on other people for something they couldn't control. So what if they're parents was poor? I might be a damn optimist, but hell! thats what it takes, spirit, guts and hard work.[/QUOTE]



And then you lost it. :shrug:



You're taking this way to personally my dear. I'm speaking as a person living in the real world. With regards to the dimensions of "this" topic, I don't care about a person's upbringing, what they've been through, what they believe or how they exist. That means nothing to me. What I am arguing is that life is not about chance and Democracy is certainly not about determination. It's about power. There is a sect of people, the elite, the WASPs for arguments sake who maintain power over generations and continue to do so until today. I know no shortage of people from "lower" class who aim to change so much but end up changing very little. I'm not saying they can't do it. I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm saying it's improbable. You think it takes spirit, guts, and hard work to enact change? That'll look real good on the eulogy for your dreams.



[But don't take it personally. As of this point my only aim is to entertain myself and I figured I would find that humorous. I did. But don't take that as an indication of any malice toward you.]





[quote name='Avan Onee-chan'] Still this has taken quite the detour, return to feminism?[/QUOTE]



I'm aware of that. Noex and I have hijacked this discussion. :grin:

 

[Zero Phoenix]

[quote name='noex1337']Really? That's not nice Zero.[/QUOTE]



You know me well Noex.







[quote name='noex1337']What are the unemployment rates for the lower class? Because as of February 2010, it was 31% meaning that the bolded statement is not quite relevant. And remember, immigrants are still lower class. Furthermore, we can't outsource all of our jobs, especially infrastructure related jobs. So yeah, my point stands. I'll let you try something else.[/QUOTE]



OK, I'll give you that. But I'll take something in kind. If the lower class contributes soooo much to the American economy, why are we in our current state? I just want you to name off all the reasons for our national debt so you can see how meaningless their efforts are. Thanks in advance.







[quote name='noex1337']It seems you aren't familiar with how a true democracy works, because that is exactly what it's about. Either way, that's irrelevant.[/QUOTE]



Touche.







[quote name='noex1337']Oh, but will you say that there were never successful people who became successful by chance? Look at bill gates for instance. He spend most of his college career dicking around. Look at where that put him. Granted, he wasn't lower class, but I'm sure you get the point. Also, Schwarzenegger from [lexus]'s example. But that's a interesting point you made in that last couple of lines. How are you going to argue "Certain people are more likely to be successful than others" and then say "Life is not a game of chance"?[/QUOTE]



You're not even trying at this point. Bill Gates didn't get successful by chance. He was actually a smart guy who knew how to seize the opportunity. Many brilliant people dropped out of high school, college, some never even went to college. Just because Bill Gates was "dicking" around as you put it, doesn't mean he wasn't a smart guy. Not only that but even if by some miracle he happened upon the formation of Microsoft by "luck" do you think for a moment that he has been successful THIS long because of a rabbit's foot? You'll need to do better than that my dear friend. I don't read [lexus]'s posts so I cannot refute whatever claim he made. Your arguments are my only concern here.







[quote name='noex1337']Sorry, I don't always concern myself with what is most probable or likely. One part of being an Engineer is being able to account for all possible likelihoods, otherwise failure will occur. I tend to apply that to my everyday life as well.[/QUOTE]



Yet you still think life is about chance? :shrug:





[quote name='noex1337']Once again, life is a game of chance. You can't refute that.[/QUOTE]



You'd make a better dealer than engineer if that's the case. You should look into a career change.

 

[VivaLaPony Onee-chan]

[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']You're taking this way to personally my dear.[/quote]



I said as soon as this section was opened that I will take anything personal.



[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']I'm speaking as a person living in the real world. With regards to the dimensions of "this" topic, I don't care about a person's upbringing, what they've been through, what they believe or how they exist. That means nothing to me. [/quote]



Does that mean I dont live in the real world? and what you don't care about is the very foundation to every human on this planet. They'er upbringing, what they experienced and what they believe in is exactly how and why change is brought upon the world.



[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']That means nothing to me. What I am arguing is that life is not about chance and Democracy is certainly not about determination. It's about power.[/quote]

Who said it was about determination? Democracy is a game of knowing peoples personalities and psychology. But what makes you want to be a politician. Thats what leads to change.

[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']There is a sect of people, the elite, the WASPs for arguments sake who maintain power over generations and continue to do so until today. I know no shortage of people from "lower" class who aim to change so much but end up changing very little.[/quote]

It most be very easy to think of like that, since it means you've given up already, using being realistic as an excuse.

[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']You think it takes spirit, guts, and hard work to enact change? That'll look real good on the eulogy for your dreams. [But don't take it personally. As of this point my only aim is to entertain myself and I figured I would find that humorous. I did. But don't take that as an indication of any malice toward you.] [/quote]

History speaks for itself. Who brought upon revolution after revolutions even if your rich white boys was in power?

 

[noex1337]

First of all, I think that you are confused about when I use the word chance. Life is a collection of random events. That is the same for every person. Do you not agree? That is what i mean by the word chance. I do not mean that each event hold the same probability as all other events for every person. Now, let us continue.



[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']

OK, I'll give you that. But I'll take something in kind. If the lower class contributes soooo much to the American economy, why are we in our current state? I just want you to name off all the reasons for our national debt so you can see how meaningless their efforts are. Thanks in advance.

[/QUOTE]

I won't get into that because that is not one of my areas of expertise. However I will ask you this. Do you really think we would be better off without the lower class?



[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']

You're not even trying at this point. Bill Gates didn't get successful by chance. He was actually a smart guy who knew how to seize the opportunity. Many brilliant people dropped out of high school, college, some never even went to college. Just because Bill Gates was "dicking" around as you put it, doesn't mean he wasn't a smart guy. Not only that but even if by some miracle he happened upon the formation of Microsoft by "luck" do you think for a moment that he has been successful THIS long because of a rabbit's foot? You'll need to do better than that my dear friend. I don't read [lexus]'s posts so I cannot refute whatever claim he made. Your arguments are my only concern here.

[/QUOTE]

There are a myriad of brilliant people who went through college who did not end up multi-millionaires. Come on now, that can't possibly be your argument. And it's interesting how you said he "knew how to seize the opportunity". Were his unique scenario not a function of chance? Seriously, there's no way you're winning this one. Or maybe I should say there's an incredibly low chance? Yohohoho!



[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']

Yet you still think life is about chance? :shrug:

[/QUOTE]

See my explanation of chance at the top



[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']

You'd make a better dealer than engineer if that's the case. You should look into a career change.[/QUOTE]

See my explanation at the top.

 

[Zero Phoenix]

Loving THIS!!

Having this much fun has got to be illegal wouldn't you say Noex. Takes me back.





[quote name='noex1337']First of all, I think that you are confused about when I use the word chance. Life is a collection of random events. That is the same for every person. Do you not agree? That is what i mean by the word chance. I do not mean that each event hold the same probability as all other events for every person. Now, let us continue.[/QUOTE]



No I don't agree. I completely disagree with your approximation that life is just a series of random events. Businesses aren't just randomly successful. People don't just randomly get voted into office. Revolutions don't just randomly happen. And people don't achieve their dreams simply because of a bunch of random coincidences. I'm sure you are aware of want went down in Egypt a couple months ago. Do you think that the people rebelled just on the toss of a coin? Do you really think that socio-political unrest was random? The people were tired of some 40 years of dictorial rule and they had enough. Mumbarak (spelling) wouldn't step down, the people were tired, and they took it upon themselves to oust him. Or, was that just a random occurence? And I suppose that all the revolutions that followed that were equally random yes?





[quote name='noex1337']I won't get into that because that is not one of my areas of expertise. However I will ask you this. Do you really think we would be better off without the lower class?[/QUOTE]



I'm not saying we'd be better off without the lower class. I never even alluded to that. I'm simply stating that their "contributions" aren't as great as you would have us believe. I mean if they were we would not be in the state that we're in.





[quote name='noex1337']There are a myriad of brilliant people who went through college who did not end up multi-millionaires. Come on now, that can't possibly be your argument. And it's interesting how you said he "knew how to seize the opportunity". Were his unique scenario not a function of chance? Seriously, there's no way you're winning this one. Or maybe I should say there's an incredibly low chance? Yohohoho![/QUOTE]



You Magnificent Bastard! I like you Noex. You're the Schneizel to my Lelouch. The Marc Anthony to my Octavian. My argument is not, "There are a myriad of brilliant people who went through college who did not end up multi-millionaires." My argument IS, success is not a game of chance. Do you think that the Hannas, the Rockefellers, the Kennedies, were influential because of luck? Do you really believe that someone as incompetent as George W. Bush won an election because of luck [and not political tampering. SLAM!]? Your platform is centered on a slippery slope. Are you prepared to argue that Steve Jobs and Bill Gates are successful because of a random event or series thereof?