Feminism

[Zero Phoenix]

"Because not all women can be beautiful."



No I'm playing, I'm playing. I saw that on a poster. Anyway, I'm rather knowledgeable about Feminism and as a man I've just never been a fan. I'm all for women having equal rights as men, I'm all for equality among all people and all races. However, Feminism has never been well-received by me personally because for the most part it's typically a bunch of man-hating single women who can do nought but project their faults and insecurities onto a male dominated world. Now of course Feminism has done much in promoting equality, garnering the right to vote and so forth, so I won't argue that Feminism had a purpose and a place at a certain time.



Nowadays however, it seems so bruttishly Amazonian. So uncouth. I find Feminism absurdly contradictory. Feminists claim to want equality but all they really want is a woman dominated world.



My views are my own and challenging me on them will do little other than amuse me. But I must wonder, what are your thoughts on the subject? What do you think of Feminism? Does it still have a place in todays world?

 

[Rascal]

[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']My views are my own and challenging me on them will do little other than amuse me. But I must wonder, what are your thoughts on the subject? What do you think of Feminism? Does it still have a place in todays world?[/quote]



hrmm, well im going to use some terms that people may not like, but I think that in the "modern" and "civilized" world... (according to the media of course) where gender equality has become an expected right, feminism is indeed just single women's wet dream of world domination :|



however there are many many many places in the world where women are still treated inferior to a humilating degree, yes? So basically, feminism as a way of life is overkill, but feminism as a tool to promote equality, and to avoid cruel and unfair double standard punishments like that weird shit in the middle east , is full of win :cool2:

 

[Emeralda]

[tab]35[/tab]What you're doing now is bringing the old kind of radical feminism. Let's be fair, among men there are also similar views, so you can't blame only one side for being wrong. Proper feminism is one where women can gather enough strength to stand on their own in matter that influence them.

[tab]35[/tab]Let me give an example from the local politics, where there was a debate about abortion for example. It's a matter that concerns woman in most part, yet you can hear only men talking on the TV how bad it is. They don't want to even acknowledge that women should speak for themselves in this topic, bah, they just plainly ignored them. While watching that, I had a feeling that all the men thought it was their duty to decide what woman can and can not. Then again, I can't expect much from a right wing that sees women in the kitchen >.>

[tab]35[/tab]I haven't really heard any radical feminist speech around here, but that's mostly because that even when a reasonable feminist's views are talked in the media, she's be instantly called crazy by some men. That's why I can't really agree with you, but I don't really know how it is outside Poland. If anything, I'd say women are still discriminated here, which the recent survey studies show for work places and their ambitions. The problem is the mentality of oh so many women that are still stuck in the old system of male dominance, sigh.

 

[Lily]

[quote name='Emeralda'][tab]35[/tab]What you're doing now is bringing the old kind of radical feminism. Let's be fair, among men there are also similar views, so you can't blame only one side for being wrong. Proper feminism is one where women can gather enough strength to stand on their own in matter that influence them.

[tab]35[/tab]Let me give an example from the local politics, where there was a debate about abortion for example. It's a matter that concerns woman in most part, yet you can hear only men talking on the TV how bad it is. They don't want to even acknowledge that women should speak for themselves in this topic, bah, they just plainly ignored them. While watching that, I had a feeling that all the men thought it was their duty to decide what woman can and can not. Then again, I can't expect much from a right wing that sees women in the kitchen >.>

[tab]35[/tab]I haven't really heard any radical feminist speech around here, but that's mostly because that even when a reasonable feminist's views are talked in the media, she's be instantly called crazy by some men. That's why I can't really agree with you, but I don't really know how it is outside Poland. If anything, I'd say women are still discriminated here, which the recent survey studies show for work places and their ambitions. The problem is the mentality of oh so many women that are still stuck in the old system of male dominance, sigh.[/QUOTE]





You've just about said what was on my mind. I agree with you 100%. I thought with the Second-wave of the Feminist movement women had made some progress. Nowadays it's practically an insult to be called a 'feminist' . Even in the western-world there is no such thing as equality to men and women, it almost seems like we've degressed instead of progressing because of this new era where feminism is directly associated with single women whom hate men.

 

[Rascal]

I think the whole term is wrong... call yourself something else... "feminist" ... etymologically speaking... isn't really the same as someone who wants gender equality.



Also with gender i think it is important to realize that "equal" and "same" are obviously not interchangeable. There are certain things that men will have the upper hand at... strength is a great example (unless you're just a body builder). And there are

certain things that women have an upperhand at, child rearing :3 ...and cleaning.... lol ok before someone gets mad, I am half joking... but it has been researched and shown that women are more inclined to notice and appreciate things that are cute, clean, pretty, fashionable, stylish, matching, detailed... aesthetically pleasing things in general. Men are more inclined to notice and appreciate things for their function.



... if u dont believe me :| go to a shoe store and time the shoppers in the womens and mens section... and count their bags on the way out while you're at it.....



[quote name='Emeralda']Let me give an example from the local politics, where there was a debate about abortion for example. It's a matter that concerns woman in most part, yet you can hear only men talking on the TV how bad it is. They don't want to even acknowledge that women should speak for themselves in this topic, bah, they just plainly ignored them. While watching that, I had a feeling that all the men thought it was their duty to decide what woman can and can not. Then again, I can't expect much from a right wing that sees women in the kitchen >.>[/quote]



ummm .__. its hard to base things on a local situation.... but you know... just because the child is growing in your womb doesn't give you the sole right to decide it's fate..... it is a privilege in some ways, and it comes with responsibilities...



ack i dont want to argue abortion in this thread... do we have another?



[quote name='Emeralda']The problem is the mentality of oh so many women that are still stuck in the old system of male dominance, sigh.

___________________[/quote]



._. the male is a natural leader.... its inherent.... why fight it? ... go watch animal planet or national geographic....

 

[Emeralda]

[quote name='Faux Angel']._. the male is a natural leader.... its inherent.... why fight it? ... go watch animal planet or national geographic....[/quote]



That's one of the things the feminism tries to even out. But not through laws and drama in media, but women themselves should change it in themselves, to not simply accept it. They have a choice, they also can lead, they are not worse from men in any way, but millennia of men dominance have left a great stigma on their minds. It's more of a fight for their minds so they could stand for themselves. The women that scream in the media how they want equal rights don't understand anything, or at least don't understand the real problem. Stupid biology >.>

 

[Rascal]

[quote name='Emeralda']But not through laws and drama in media, but women themselves should change it in themselves, to not simply accept it[/quote]



if no harm comes from accepting it.... let them accept it... why fight it?



[quote name='Emeralda']They have a choice, they also can lead, they are not worse from men in any way, but millennia of men dominance have left a great stigma on their minds.[/quote]

Oi, just because you are not the leader doesn't mean you are worse! Everyone cannot lead! its just simple as that, and the man is wired better as a leader. I am not saying that women cannot lead. I am saying in GENERAL men are better leaders. And men cannot be good leaders without the support of other men and women who are behind them. (women are great supporters :grin: )



[quote name='Emeralda']It's more of a fight for their minds so they could stand for themselves. [/quote]

once again, not being a leader... isnt the same as not standing for yourself. If you are being wronged, then you need to take the necessary actions against it. But lets just put it this way, even beyond equality, even with male dominance, if its a peaceful and happy way to live for all parties involved, then its perfectly ok.



[quote name='Emeralda']but millennia of men dominance have left a great stigma on their minds.[/quote]

._. i doubt it... this is a different sort of generation, history doesn't really affect our motives and actions (however unfortunate that may be) , we have internet and other media that keeps us connected to others and in touch with the realities around the world, its almost impossible to collectively brainwash, or stigmatize a whole gender....

 

[Emeralda]

[quote name='Faux Angel']if no harm comes from accepting it [male domination].... let them accept it... why fight it?[/quote]



That's exactly the approach the modern feminism should combat. But the day when women stop thinking of themselves as inferior or not having the right to speak out their minds will take a while >.>



[quote name='Faux Angel']Oi, just because you are not the leader doesn't mean you are worse! Everyone cannot lead! its just simple as that, and the man is wired better as a leader. I am not saying that women cannot lead. I am saying in GENERAL men are better leaders. And men cannot be good leaders without the support of other men and women who are behind them. (women are great supporters )[/quote]



Not exactly true. Women in many situations have proven to be better leaders, but the problem is, there are so few situations when they could actually prove anything, because they don't fight so hard for the leader positions. It's saddening.



[quote name='Faux Angel']once again, not being a leader... isnt the same as not standing for yourself. If you are being wronged, then you need to take the necessary actions against it. But lets just put it this way, even beyond equality, even with male dominance, if its a peaceful and happy way to live for all parties involved, then its perfectly ok.[/quote]



Male strive for domination and conflict, it's in their genes, just like someone mentioned what's in women's "genes" some posts before. Ergo, doesn't the logical conclusion mean that the world would be a more peaceful place if women were in charge? Especially in the East?



[quote name='Faux Angel']._. i doubt it... this is a different sort of generation, history doesn't really affect our motives and actions (however unfortunate that may be) , we have internet and other media that keeps us connected to others and in touch with the realities around the world, its almost impossible to collectively brainwash, or stigmatize a whole gender....[/quote]



Media, internet, it's a brainwashing tool in itself. Let's take magazines for women. Those things just upkeep the thinking that women should be pretty for men, and that they should strive to get a man as if that was their only reason for existence. It's quite hard to fight against such stealthy influence through the unconscious, since of us don't realize what effect it has on people.

 

[~mimesis]

Imma start by saying, that recently a friend of mine, informed me laughingly (he's the woman=kitchen kinda guy) that this teacher told them that actually the first feminist actions were started by men, in order for them to gain work hand for the newly born factories, during the steam revolution, cuz men weren;t manly enough to do it by themselves. At first, i gotta say i was skeptical, but then my friend asked me, what else have you studied besides wiki on the subjects, so i said nothing. I am still waiting for that book, he told me he found this in, but i tend to agree with them. Although, even if it were true, this doesn't give the right for anyone to say men are in anyway better than women...anyway this is a useless rant the important points are down bellow, cuz i felt i couldn't just read, and not reply



[quote name='Faux Angel']I think the whole term is wrong... call yourself something else... "feminist" ... etymologically speaking... isn't really the same as someone who wants gender equality.[/quote]

actually, that's exactly what it means, it means, people trying to convince people like you, women are perfectly capable of having functions in society other than being prone to clean the house, and having babies.







[quote name='Faux Angel'] ... if u dont believe me :| go to a shoe store and time the shoppers in the womens and mens section... and count their bags on the way out while you're at it.....[/quote]

isn't that more because of the fact that women try to make themselves prettier for themselves, but especially for men? that applies to everything, from make up, to clothing, to shoes, which brings me to



[quote name='Faux Angel']

._. the male is a natural leader.... its inherent.... why fight it? ... go watch animal planet or national geographic...[/quote]

if you took your own advice you'd noticed, the one ruling the animal world, is still the female, based on the rude saying of "i have the p***y i make the rules", which is though, true. Even though, in the animal world, undoubtedly the male is the one that is always, prettier, more colorful and so on, it's always the female, that although plain, is the one that choses the partner. I remember once in a park, i watched this pretty pigeon courting a female, and she seemed willing until he tried to jump her, 3 times in a row, and she refused him...enough said



[quote name='Faux Angel']There are certain things that men will have the upper hand at... strength is a great example[/quote]

Here's another great example, mom used to work on a construction site as a secretary. Near that construction site there was a hall related to a metal foundry used for boat building, that also dealt with metal soldering for the same purpose of boat building. Mom told me, half of the greatest soldering experts were not men, but women, who not only worked neater, quicker, and better than most men, but also weren't shemales, you know the type, but actually beautiful women that when they got out of work looked like dolls taken out of the box. And we are talking here about working with huge metal sheets, and dangerous heavy soldering equipment.

Secondly, it's a known fact, best divers in the world, are women, because our body is built to sustain higher pressure than a male's. Just imagine the pearl divers, that dived very deep to gather pearl clams, without any equipment except for a knife and a pouch, and that's not just in movies.



[quote name='Faux Angel'] and the man is wired better as a leader.[/quote]

and that is said where? imma use just few examples, and imma just give names cuz i am too lazy to state facts but, rulers OR women that surpased male dominance

Queen Elizabeth the first

Queen Victoria

Cleopatra

Madame de Pompadour

Queen Eckaterina of Russia

Anne Boelyn, that although driven by family into glory, and ended beheaded was a great woman in her way

Marguerite Yourcenar

Murasaki Shikibu

and many, many more....

also, religion if you can take some more

Jews, are going on as a matriarchate if i am still up to date

early 18th century puritans and protestans considered the woman as the pillar and head of the home instead of the man

Catholics, that worship virgin Mary not for being a holy mother, but for being a woman...

....

and i am tired



[quote name='Faux Angel']its almost impossible to collectively brainwash, or stigmatize a whole gender....[/quote]

you just stigmatized and brainwashed yourself

as Emeralda said, media is exactly the thing that brainwashes the popular majority.

Male strive for domination and conflict, it's in their genes, just like someone mentioned what's in women's "genes" some posts before. Ergo, doesn't the logical conclusion mean that the world would be a more peaceful place if women were in charge? Especially in the East?

-nod-

 

[Ataraxia]

history doesn't really affect our motives and actions

Do you understand how fail this statement is?

People learn from their parents and experiences and their parents from their parents and experiences.

Its a huge chain of events and influences.

It may not consciously affect you but it certainly does.

 

[Rascal]

[quote name='Ataraxia']Do you understand how fail this statement is?

People learn from their parents and experiences and their parents from their parents and experiences.

Its a huge chain of events and influences.

It may not consciously affect you but it certainly does.[/QUOTE]

not as much as in the past, i mean... unless u just want to be stupid...

theres so many resources available to this generation, stigma due to history is no longer a good excuse :|



nd i didnt ignore the other posts >.< im jus... like x.x crud theyre long... so ill get to it i promise



:3 i like being controversial btw

 

[Sanae]

I believe women should have equal rights as men, but I don't support the whole "Down with men!" idea o.o Some tend to take it to extremes, but well.. that's to extreme, neh xD?

 

[Rascal]

[quote name='Emeralda']That's exactly the approach the modern feminism should combat. But the day when women stop thinking of themselves as inferior or not having the right to speak out their minds will take a while >.>[/quote]



look, i NEVER said anything about women not having rights, they should have every right to speak their mind. and just because you are not in charge, doesnt mean you are an inferior human being, it just means u fit in elsewhere and are just as important in the big picture



[quote name='Emeralda']Not exactly true. Women in many situations have proven to be better leaders, but the problem is, there are so few situations when they could actually prove anything, because they don't fight so hard for the leader positions. It's saddening.[/quote]



im sorry.... i put "general" in caps hoping you would notice it, let me put it in bold for u: in GENERAL men make better leaders. .... imagine the movie 300 with a bunch of girls yelling THIS IS SPARTA .... not quite the same is it? (yeh irrelevant i know :3 )



[quote name='Emeralda']Male strive for domination and conflict, it's in their genes, just like someone mentioned what's in women's "genes" some posts before. Ergo, doesn't the logical conclusion mean that the world would be a more peaceful place if women were in charge? Especially in the East?[/quote]



domination maybe, conflict no. have you ever noticed how easily girls get jealous and act vindictively towards each other while the guys kinda have this unspoken rule of respect .__. girls like to run their mouths more also... just saying...

a world run by women would be full of dangerous contradictions... girls are more prone to cognitive dissonance... especially emotionally



[quote name='Emeralda']Media, internet, it's a brainwashing tool in itself. Let's take magazines for women. Those things just upkeep the thinking that women should be pretty for men, and that they should strive to get a man as if that was their only reason for existence. It's quite hard to fight against such stealthy influence through the unconscious, since of us don't realize what effect it has on people.[/quote]

uh... if you dont like the magazine, dont buy it?

and women should be pretty for men..... why on earth shouldnt women be pretty for men?

.__. nd ur reason for existence...at the core level... is in fact to reproduce.... so yes, go find a man please.



[quote name='~mimesis']Although, even if it were true, this doesn't give the right for anyone to say men are in anyway better than women...[/quote]

and thats why no one said it : D !!!!



[quote name='~mimesis']actually, that's exactly what it means, it means, people trying to convince people like you, women are perfectly capable of having functions in society other than being prone to clean the house, and having babies.[/quote]

ok... i was talking about the misuse of the root word... but if u dont study language u dont know...

and i never said women were incapable of other functions, i jus said they are better at those things in general than men are... not to mention men cant have kids anyways



[quote name='~mimesis']isn't that more because of the fact that women try to make themselves prettier for themselves, but especially for men? that applies to everything, from make up, to clothing, to shoes, which brings me to[/quote]

umm yes thats exactly what i meant... women like pretty things... :3 naturally gifted



[quote name='~mimesis']if you took your own advice you'd noticed, the one ruling the animal world, is still the female, based on the rude saying of "i have the p***y i make the rules", which is though, true. Even though, in the animal world, undoubtedly the male is the one that is always, prettier, more colorful and so on, it's always the female, that although plain, is the one that choses the partner.[/quote] maids!

ok... that rule is bull, it could easily work the other way nd say i have the d**k i make the rules...

and in the animal world it doesnt always work like that.... and u know... picking ur mate doesnt make u a leader lol... thats a sexual thing and totally differnet



[quote name='~mimesis'] I remember once in a park, i watched this pretty pigeon courting a female, and she seemed willing until he tried to jump her, 3 times in a row, and she refused him...enough said[/quote]

unless ur studying birds, u dont have a clue what was going on there, she could have jus wanted some prrriiiiivacy ;3



[quote name='~mimesis']Here's another great example, mom used to work on a construction site as a secretary. Near that construction site there was a hall related to a metal foundry used for boat building, that also dealt with metal soldering for the same purpose of boat building. Mom told me, half of the greatest soldering experts were not men, but women, who not only worked neater, quicker, and better than most men[/quote]



lol.... told u... naturally gifted with being neat and quick workers :3 ... put em in the kitchen with those badass talents

>.> nd jus saying... soldering doesnt exactly require strength as much as precision... oh boy another great trait for a maid :3



[quote name='~mimesis']and that is said where? imma use just few examples, and imma just give names cuz i am too lazy to state facts but, rulers OR women that surpased male dominance[/quote]



annnd this list for male figures is so much longer... jus saying...

not to mention the controversial things shrouding many of those figures u mentioned

and once again i would like to point out that i was clearly talkin in general... exceptions are always around



[quote name='~mimesis']you just stigmatized and brainwashed yourself

as Emeralda said, media is exactly the thing that brainwashes the popular majority.[/quote]



:| if u say so... im jus saying that if ur dumb enough to actually listen to the media now a days... u deserve the brainwashing





x.x im tired...

 

[Crom]

[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']"Because not all women can be beautiful."



No I'm playing, I'm playing. I saw that on a poster. Anyway, I'm rather knowledgeable about Feminism and as a man I've just never been a fan. I'm all for women having equal rights as men, I'm all for equality among all people and all races. However, Feminism has never been well-received by me personally because for the most part it's typically a bunch of man-hating single women who can do nought but project their faults and insecurities onto a male dominated world. Now of course Feminism has done much in promoting equality, garnering the right to vote and so forth, so I won't argue that Feminism had a purpose and a place at a certain time.



Nowadays however, it seems so bruttishly Amazonian. So uncouth. I find Feminism absurdly contradictory. Feminists claim to want equality but all they really want is a woman dominated world.



My views are my own and challenging me on them will do little other than amuse me. But I must wonder, what are your thoughts on the subject? What do you think of Feminism? Does it still have a place in todays world?[/QUOTE]



Yerp, you just summed it all up in that line. Sure sometimes its needed, but now a days most women are treated equal. Now let me share a story about that bolded part



I knew this woman from a place I worked and a few social things with the co-workers, she was about 34 or something. Now we ended up talking for a while a few times and we talk about more personal things, and she'd always rant about how men suck. Then at then I'd find out she'd talk shit about me behind my back, but she'd always be smiling in my face and giving me compliments. The whole time I knew her shed make "jokes" to the other girls in front of me about things like "Haha you better becareful around him, guys like him know how to get inside your head" and saying stupid shit like that. And you know what I always heard her bitching about? Womans rights. She goes around being two faced to me, talking tons of crap about the men, then has he nerve to talk about men mistreating women. When the whole time shes the one with the problems, and even told me about how she cheated on her past boyfriends when she was younger.



Hypocrisy in its finest form. Just a little insight on how these woman's rights women can be.

 

[Zero Phoenix]

There's a K-I-N-G in here.

[quote name='Emeralda'][tab]35[/tab]What you're doing now is bringing the old kind of radical feminism. Let's be fair, among men there are also similar views, so you can't blame only one side for being wrong. Proper feminism is one where women can gather enough strength to stand on their own in matter that influence them.[/QUOTE]



It sounds like you are arguing that proper Feminism gives women the tools to stand on their own. Is that correct?





[quote name='Emeralda']It's a matter that concerns woman in most part, yet you can hear only men talking on the TV how bad it is. They don't want to even acknowledge that women should speak for themselves in this topic, bah, they just plainly ignored them. While watching that, I had a feeling that all the men thought it was their duty to decide what woman can and can not. Then again, I can't expect much from a right wing that sees women in the kitchen >.>[/QUOTE]



Doubtful. Abortion is hardly an issue where "women" are the primary concern. Abortion concerns the American taxpayers, politicians, and the man who got the woman pregnant. The woman may be carrying the child but she hardly has more than 25% stake in this whole deal. Abortion is not a woman issue it's a socio-political issue and I would sooner hear from a politician than a perhaps, lower-class irresponsible woman who got knocked up on prom night. Let's face it, most abortions are had by people in lower-class households, smaller income, and very little access to higher education. If a woman from this sect has an opinion on abortion I honestly don't want to hear what she has to say.





[quote name='Lily']Even in the western-world there is no such thing as equality to men and women, it almost seems like we've degressed instead of progressing because of this new era where feminism is directly associated with single women whom hate men.[/QUOTE]



It's more than that? Who knew? [Nah I'm being a smartass. I'm extremely sarcastic so take it with a grain of salt.]





[quote name='Faux Angel']I think the whole term is wrong... call yourself something else... "feminist" ... etymologically speaking... isn't really the same as someone who wants gender equality.[/QUOTE]



Thank you!







[quote name='Faux Angel']Also with gender i think it is important to realize that "equal" and "same" are obviously not interchangeable. There are certain things that men will have the upper hand at... strength is a great example (unless you're just a body builder). And there are certain things that women have an upperhand at, child rearing :3 ...and cleaning.... lol ok before someone gets mad, I am half joking... but it has been researched and shown that women are more inclined to notice and appreciate things that are cute, clean, pretty, fashionable, stylish, matching, detailed... aesthetically pleasing things in general. Men are more inclined to notice and appreciate things for their function.[/QUOTE]



True that.







[quote name='Faux Angel']ummm .__. its hard to base things on a local situation.... but you know... just because the child is growing in your womb doesn't give you the sole right to decide it's fate..... it is a privilege in some ways, and it comes with responsibilities...[/QUOTE]



Go girl! Say it again!







[quote name='Faux Angel']ack i dont want to argue abortion in this thread... do we have another?[/QUOTE]



You know I've thought about starting an abortion thread by why waste my time? I've crippled so many pitiful arguments laid-down by pro-choicers that after awhile it becomes pedestrian.





[quote name='Faux Angel']._. the male is a natural leader.... its inherent.... why fight it? ... go watch animal planet or national geographic....[/QUOTE]



I'm going to disagree with you on this one. I haven't the time to argue why but I could elaborate another day.

 

[Zero Phoenix]

[quote name='Emeralda']That's one of the things the feminism tries to even out. But not through laws and drama in media, but women themselves should change it in themselves, to not simply accept it. They have a choice, they also can lead, they are not worse from men in any way, but millennia of men dominance have left a great stigma on their minds. It's more of a fight for their minds so they could stand for themselves. The women that scream in the media how they want equal rights don't understand anything, or at least don't understand the real problem. Stupid biology >.>[/QUOTE]





"As long as their safety was guaranteed the question of who ruled them really didn't matter."

- Ashram





[quote name='Faux Angel']if no harm comes from accepting it.... let them accept it... why fight it?[/QUOTE]





If it ain't broke...







[quote name='Faux Angel']Oi, just because you are not the leader doesn't mean you are worse! Everyone cannot lead! its just simple as that, and the man is wired better as a leader. I am not saying that women cannot lead. I am saying in GENERAL men are better leaders. And men cannot be good leaders without the support of other men and women who are behind them.[/QUOTE]



True.







[quote name='Faux Angel']once again, not being a leader... isnt the same as not standing for yourself. If you are being wronged, then you need to take the necessary actions against it. But lets just put it this way, even beyond equality, even with male dominance, if its a peaceful and happy way to live for all parties involved, then its perfectly ok.[/QUOTE]



True. John Locke proves it.







[quote name='Faux Angel']._. i doubt it... this is a different sort of generation, history doesn't really affect our motives and actions (however unfortunate that may be) , we have internet and other media that keeps us connected to others and in touch with the realities around the world, its almost impossible to collectively brainwash, or stigmatize a whole gender....[/QUOTE]



What? What? I'm sorry to say this but history and the media has done an exceptional job of stigmatizing females. The internet has only made this problem even worse.







[quote name='Emeralda']That's exactly the approach the modern feminism should combat. But the day when women stop thinking of themselves as inferior or not having the right to speak out their minds will take a while >.>[/QUOTE]



Depends on where you live. American women have no problems speaking out. The hard part is getting people to listen.





[quote name='Emeralda']Not exactly true. Women in many situations have proven to be better leaders, but the problem is, there are so few situations when they could actually prove anything, because they don't fight so hard for the leader positions. It's saddening.[/QUOTE]



Just as good? Of course. Better? Doubtful.







[quote name='Emeralda']Male strive for domination and conflict, it's in their genes, just like someone mentioned what's in women's "genes" some posts before. Ergo, doesn't the logical conclusion mean that the world would be a more peaceful place if women were in charge? Especially in the East?[/QUOTE]



Uhh, hell no. History is full of vicious women who were horrible rulers. And there have already been societies created and ruled by women that were just as brutal if not more so than the men. Amazons anyone? That genetics argument is flawed from the ground up. It's not in the genes, it's in how a person was socialized. A woman, socialized under adverse conditions will be just as a brutal and ruthless as a man raised in those same conditions.







[quote name='Emeralda']Media, internet, it's a brainwashing tool in itself. Let's take magazines for women. Those things just upkeep the thinking that women should be pretty for men, and that they should strive to get a man as if that was their only reason for existence. It's quite hard to fight against such stealthy influence through the unconscious, since of us don't realize what effect it has on people.[/QUOTE]



True. I work in Journalism so I can vouch for your argument. People like me tell the masses how to think.

 

[-lexus-]

Ive gotta say, Im kinda annoyed by some of the more 'active' feminists for being big hypocrites. As stated before, they are more bent on a role reversal with men being the dominated gender instead of equality. Then these girls usually also keep bitching that when that means they also gotta do the shitty stuff that comes with equality that men are all chauvinist pigs. They seem to be feminist only when it suits them.



Furthermore, they have this nasty habit of being so dominant everywhere. They see women who chose to have kids and depend on their husband for money as some sort of traitor to all women kind. I thought feminism was about having the ability to chose between getting a job and a career or getting kids and stay at home, or a mixture of a bit of both. But noooooooo, according to these feminists everyone should work.



Then there is also the whole idea that human beings are perfectly equal or that guys are equal to girls or something. Hate to rain on your parade, but girls are not guys and they are never perfectly equal. Thats not a bad thing and it doesnt mean that guys are better then girls or the other way around. But face it, girls get pregnant and have periods, guys dont. Guys can stand and piss against a tree, a girl has to sit down. See, DIFFERENCE. The same can also be said about physical strength etc. There is a reason why you never see female construction workers. Again, it doesnt mean that guys are better, but it stays a face that there are some slight differences between the sexes.



So yeah, the militant kind of feminism that claims that men are just walking dildos pisses me off to no end and generally causes me to want to punch the person who said it in the face and say something like 'get back in the kitchen' just to piss her off.



Again, Im all for feminism and gender equality and the freedom for everyone to choose what they want to do with their lives, as long as it stays moderate and doesnt turn into some kind of extremism.

 

[Ataraxia]

[quote name='Faux Angel']not as much as in the past, i mean... unless u just want to be stupid...

theres so many resources available to this generation, stigma due to history is no longer a good excuse :|



nd i didnt ignore the other posts >.< im jus... like x.x crud theyre long... so ill get to it i promise



:3 i like being controversial btw[/QUOTE]



You should really take a sociology class sometime.

Everyone is bias.

Everyone uses stereotypes.

They are ingrained into us by society.

The internet and media doesn't change that.

Unless you've been a shut-in your whole life.

 

[Emeralda]

[quote name='Faux Angel']look, i NEVER said anything about women not having rights, they should have every right to speak their mind. and just because you are not in charge, doesnt mean you are an inferior human being, it just means u fit in elsewhere and are just as important in the big picture[/quote]



Reading with comprehension, you lack it. Read what I wrote again.



[quote name='Faux Angel']im sorry.... i put "general" in caps hoping you would notice it, let me put it in bold for u: in GENERAL men make better leaders. .... imagine the movie 300 with a bunch of girls yelling THIS IS SPARTA .... not quite the same is it? (yeh irrelevant i know :3 [/quote]



And I'm asking you for proof. Problem is, there is none, because men are always in power. In general, ok, I can play your game. The female leaders that were put as an example by Mimesis did way better than their male counterparts. For current day rulers? I see a lot of hating from them, just twitching to go on war against someone. Just take a look at the world's superpowers to see that I'm not lying. If women were in control, such tension would never be there. And look what's going on in Africa right now. All the dictators there are male. Coincidence? Problem is, you don't know much about contemporary women in power, because media don't talk much about them. Why? Because media like to talk about drama and failures, and female leaders do their job.



[quote name='Faux Angel']domination maybe, conflict no. have you ever noticed how easily girls get jealous and act vindictively towards each other while the guys kinda have this unspoken rule of respect .__. girls like to run their mouths more also... just saying...

a world run by women would be full of dangerous contradictions... girls are more prone to cognitive dissonance... especially emotionally[/quote]



Conflict, yes, like explained above. Girls getting jelous? That's my whole point, those are the temporary bimbettes of our age, that think only about men. The only happy people because of that are men, because then they can "hunt those trophies" down. So please don't put such examples here, when prove MY original point. That feminism means evolving ones mind and views on the existence of women. Feminists fight to release women from thinking they are men's trophies.



[quote name='Faux Angel']uh... if you dont like the magazine, dont buy it?

and women should be pretty for men..... why on earth shouldnt women be pretty for men?

.__. nd ur reason for existence...at the core level... is in fact to reproduce.... so yes, go find a man please.[/quote]



You, dear sir, are a sexist. And even if you tell me you're a woman, I will not believe it.



Also, it's not about buying it, it was an example. You can't escape from media like that, unless you live in a cave. Tell me that when you watch TV, you don't see commercials showing "happy" women in kitchen being even happier to clean it. Another example that proves that everyday media influence women in a negative way, trying to convince them that being a pretty housewife magically solves all the problems. Problem is, young girls rise on those brainwashers and later are such bimbettes that you gave an example of.



[quote name='Faux Angel']and thats why no one said it : D !!!![/quote]



You said it. This time read what you wrote with comprehension.



[quote name='Faux Angel']ok... i was talking about the misuse of the root word... but if u dont study language u dont know...

and i never said women were incapable of other functions, i jus said they are better at those things in general than men are... not to mention men cant have kids anyways[/quote]



Actually, no. Women are perfectly capable of those things, but because they were forced to lower functions in society, a mentality is shaped that they should do what men consider "a woman's job," and sadly, women accept their fate. Feminism is all about going against such worldview, where you perceive where what gender fits best. Notice how I used gender, to highlight that it's not only about females, but about the mentality of both genders in this case.



[quote name='Faux Angel']umm yes thats exactly what i meant... women like pretty things... :3 naturally gifted[/quote]



Your point being? Because I don't see the connection here. Or are you saying that because women value beauty, they are inferior to men who like cars, guns and power? Again, an example why women are better, and deserve better because of that. And I'm not talking about such silly examples like liking shiny things like jewellery. That's stereotypical thinking. Men enjoy when women are like that, women themselves are brought up to such a mentality because they don't have an alternative they could base their lives on. It's a wicked circle, and all that's required is to stop and think for a second.



-animal quote is skipped, it was stupid in the first place-



[quote name='Faux Angel']lol.... told u... naturally gifted with being neat and quick workers :3 ... put em in the kitchen with those badass talents

>.> nd jus saying... soldering doesnt exactly require strength as much as precision... oh boy another great trait for a maid :3[/quote]



Initially I didn't want to respond to that, but then I just couldn't bare it, so I will sum it up: You're a troll.



[quote name='Faux Angel']annnd this list for male figures is so much longer... jus saying... [/quote]



The list is shorter is because those were men dominated times, war, poverty, hatred and discrimination were common back then. But it's not about the length of the list, but the qualities, and even you wouldn't be able to deny that they did much better then their male counterparts.



[quote name='Faux Angel']not to mention the controversial things shrouding many of those figures u mentioned[/quote]



I'm all ears. Give me some reasons that couldn't be attributed to men being 5 times worse.



[quote name='Faux Angel']and once again i would like to point out that i was clearly talkin in general... exceptions are always around[/quote]



And we all know where such simple generalizations to justify one's words lead to.



[quote name='Faux Angel']:| if u say so... im jus saying that if ur dumb enough to actually listen to the media now a days... u deserve the brainwashing[/quote]



So you're saying the fault lies on the people that watch TV, read different paper magazines or use the internet? Good job on completely compromising yourself. It's those Media that should stop shaping women into being kitchen housewives, and men into thinking that they should strive for power. Not everyone can be saved, I'm not so naive, but when you have such a powerful enemy like, for example, corporations shaping their clients into being men's toys so they would buy their products to be pretty, than no, I refuse to accept it.



[quote name='Crom']Yerp, you just summed it all up in that line. Sure sometimes its needed, but now a days most women are treated equal. Now let me share a story about that bolded part[/quote]



Again, this is an old stereotypical and radical feminist image. If some women still behave like that, I'd hate on them myself. But you can't take that one example and put all the real feminists with them. Modern feminism is about mentality, and every women that understands the real meaning of equality, not by law, not by social standards, but with their minds, are feminists. It's a trait, not a name.

 

[Emeralda]

[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']Doubtful. Abortion is hardly an issue where "women" are the primary concern. Abortion concerns the American taxpayers, politicians, and the man who got the woman pregnant. The woman may be carrying the child but she hardly has more than 25% stake in this whole deal. Abortion is not a woman issue it's a socio-political issue and I would sooner hear from a politician than a perhaps, lower-class irresponsible woman who got knocked up on prom night. Let's face it, most abortions are had by people in lower-class households, smaller income, and very little access to higher education. If a woman from this sect has an opinion on abortion I honestly don't want to hear what she has to say.[/quote]



You're right in one thing. Currently women are treated as if only they had so little to decide in it. But if you're saying women shouldn't have the right to decide about their bodies, then how about we decide about men's d*cks? I mean, it would only be fair, right? You decide what to do with a woman's body like always, and we say what to do with yours.



[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']True that.[/quote]



And reasons why it's not exactly true, meaning, that it was shaped over the time(take Victorian times for example, where women were treated as trophies), by 3rd party factors (media, lack of educated examples, other bimbettes), etc. That research of yours shows that women have more positive virtues to lead, but men want power despite lacking those. Meaning, men are not better leaders like people say. Biology proves it, and I want to see when a woman can finally prove it. And I really hope it won't be Clinton or Paulin >.>



This also brings me to the second point. So far, you were talking what women CURRENTLY are, and that they should stay in kitchen because of that. What I want, is for women to grow out of their silly thoughts about men, get a hold of yourselves, and do something right with your lives. The world would be such a better place.



[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']You know I've thought about starting an abortion thread by why waste my time? I've crippled so many pitiful arguments laid-down by pro-choicers that after awhile it becomes pedestrian.[/quote]



Go ahead, I will straight out ignore your trolls~



[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']"As long as their safety was guaranteed the question of who ruled them really didn't matter."[/quote]



That's an awfully sexist quote, you know that? Again, this is a view that feminism tries to combat. That women are not merely there to be defended and treated like trophies. They are not there to obey what men say. A true woman should care about everything, and if there is a better alternative that is not male, does it mean they have no right to chose it? It's what men would like, for women to follow them without questions, but I will question them.



[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']If it ain't broke...[/quote]



Sigh, again, a troll remark.



[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']True.[/quote]



So much elaboration!



Not true~



[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']True. John Locke proves it.[/quote]



Not true. I've proven it. Male dominated world is not peaceful as you'd want, and it could definitely be better. So when you have an better alternative, why stick to the old views?



[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']What? What? I'm sorry to say this but history and the media has done an exceptional job of stigmatizing females. The internet has only made this problem even worse.[/quote]



And no one would even be able to deny that.



[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']Depends on where you live. American women have no problems speaking out. The hard part is getting people to listen.[/quote]



Yeah, whenever I see Sarah Paulin (America's no#1 Bimbette) or Hillarious Clinton speak their minds, I feel so ashamed. There are so few women that actually do that compared to men, sigh.



[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']Just as good? Of course. Better? Doubtful.[/quote]



Read history books and then compare your examples. As an example, conflict-wise, women will avoid it, men will seek it.



[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']Uhh, hell no. History is full of vicious women who were horrible rulers. And there have already been societies created and ruled by women that were just as brutal if not more so than the men. Amazons anyone? That genetics argument is flawed from the ground up. It's not in the genes, it's in how a person was socialized. A woman, socialized under adverse conditions will be just as a brutal and ruthless as a man raised in those same conditions.[/quote]



Ok, make up your mind. Once you agree to the gene theory for women, and now you deny it for men. Amazons, yeah, awesome example. Oh, I know, I will find you a similar example and play by your rules! In Africa there is a male only tribe that forces the male children into oral sex. Oh wow, that must prove that men think only about raping little boys!



Just so you know, genes, brain, biology, they do take part in what we are as well, no denying that. Social upbringing however takes a huge role in the mentality of man and women as well ofcourse.



[quote name='[lexus'];66889]So yeah, the militant kind of feminism that claims that men are just walking dildos pisses me off to no end and generally causes me to want to punch the person who said it in the face and say something like 'get back in the kitchen' just to piss her off.[/quote]



Trust me, those radical ones also annoy me, since they not only don't understand what modern feminism is, they also bring a bad name to those women that actually try and are later laughed of or insulted.