Ibn Ladin's death, Obama's speech, and the notion of Justice.

[Kaze Araki]

In his presidential speech following the assasination of Usamah bin Ladin, Barrack Obama mentioned five times the word "justice";

We were also united in our resolve to protect our nation and to bring those who committed this vicious attack to justice. We quickly learned that the 9/11 attacks were carried out by al Qaeda -- an organization headed by Osama bin Laden, which had openly declared war on the United States and was committed to killing innocents in our country and around the globe. And so we went to war against al Qaeda to protect our citizens, our friends, and our allies.

Then, last August, after years of painstaking work by our intelligence community, I was briefed on a possible lead to bin Laden. It was far from certain, and it took many months to run this thread to ground. I met repeatedly with my national security team as we developed more information about the possibility that we had located bin Laden hiding within a compound deep inside of Pakistan. And finally, last week, I determined that we had enough intelligence to take action, and authorized an operation to get Osama bin Laden and bring him to justice.

So Americans understand the costs of war. Yet as a country, we will never tolerate our security being threatened, nor stand idly by when our people have been killed. We will be relentless in defense of our citizens and our friends and allies. We will be true to the values that make us who we are. And on nights like this one, we can say to those families who have lost loved ones to al Qaeda’s terror: Justice has been done.

Tonight, we give thanks to the countless intelligence and counterterrorism professionals who’ve worked tirelessly to achieve this outcome. The American people do not see their work, nor know their names. But tonight, they feel the satisfaction of their work and the result of their pursuit of justice.

Let us remember that we can do these things not just because of wealth or power, but because of who we are: one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/02/osama-bin-laden-dead-obama-speech-transcript_n_856122.html







My question; is the word justice a meaningless word?

 

[VivaLaPony Onee-chan]

No. Justice is a word that can be used by anyone, as it is non-discriminating and non-judgmental word. Its a word that can be used by both sides without taking a side, in fairness. Justice is a double edged sword. It can be used against you and you can use it for your gain. In my opinion, justice is the ultimate word.

 

[Hadriel]

[quote name='Avan Onee-chan']No. Justice is a word that can be used by anyone, as it is non-discriminating and non-judgmental word.[/QUOTE]



Turning this argument around, I believe "justice" is a meaningless word, because it can be used by anyone. The word "justice" has been used many times as an empty basis for actions which may not always have beneficial outcomes. For example, previous US President George W. Bush cited "justice" as a reason for the US invasion of Iraq, something which to this day many people condemn, due to the unprecedented financial burden on USA. The word "justice" has become a bargaining chip for people in positions of power to act however they want without the consent of others.

 

[Zero Phoenix]

I'm honestly disappointed in you Hadriel. How could you think that? :shrug:



Just because politicians abuse their power and seduce the masses with words like justice, that does not mean that Justice as an ideal is tainted. You would do well to realize that there is a difference between the ideal and the method. If Obama calls our actions in the Middle East justice, as a moral agent I would be inclined to disagree with HIS notion of justice. His justice is not Justice (capital "J"). I'm not just slamming Obama specifically but politicians in general. I think you and perhaps Kaze-dono are reading far too much into this. Obama's speech is more of the same political BS that drives all the nations in their own respective ways. His mislabelling his/our actions as justice does not compromise what true justice is.





Definition of JUSTICE



1

a : the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments b : judge c : the administration of law; especially : the establishment or determination of rights according to the rules of law or equity



2

a : the quality of being just, impartial, or fair b (1) : the principle or ideal of just dealing or right action (2) : conformity to this principle or ideal : righteousness c : the quality of conforming to law



3

: conformity to truth, fact, or reason : correctness





Do any of these definitions conform to the actions of the United States as of late? No, of course not. Nor any country in the last 200 years for that matter. The abuse of justice does not mean that Justice as an ideal or practice is meaningless. Criminals abuse their freedom all the time but no one challenges the nature of free will. Go fig. The fact is Justice is not an empty or meaningless word. Sure it's abused, raped even, but if Justice were truly hollow and empty then this world and how people live in it would be much worse than it is now. [It seems impossible but it is what it is.]



While there are many with power who abuse the word justice, there are also those who strive to protect and enforce the ideal and practice of justice. A politicians idea of justice will be different from a judge's idea of justice. And it's also possible for both to screw up in the administration of justice. That's called human error.

 

[Hadriel]

[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']I'm honestly disappointed in you Hadriel. How could you think that? :shrug:



Just because politicians abuse their power and seduce the masses with words like justice, that does not mean that Justice as an ideal is tainted. You would do well to realize that there is a difference between the ideal and the method. If Obama calls our actions in the Middle East justice, as a moral agent I would be inclined to disagree with HIS notion of justice. His justice is not Justice (capital "J"). I'm not just slamming Obama specifically but politicians in general. I think you and perhaps Kaze-dono are reading far too much into this. Obama's speech is more of the same political BS that drives all the nations in their own respective ways. His mislabelling his/our actions as justice does not compromise what true justice is.





Definition of JUSTICE



1

a : the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments b : judge c : the administration of law; especially : the establishment or determination of rights according to the rules of law or equity



2

a : the quality of being just, impartial, or fair b (1) : the principle or ideal of just dealing or right action (2) : conformity to this principle or ideal : righteousness c : the quality of conforming to law



3

: conformity to truth, fact, or reason : correctness





Do any of these definitions conform to the actions of the United States as of late? No, of course not. Nor any country in the last 200 years for that matter. The abuse of justice does not mean that Justice as an ideal or practice is meaningless. Criminals abuse their freedom all the time but no one challenges the nature of free will. Go fig. The fact is Justice is not an empty or meaningless word. Sure it's abused, raped even, but if Justice were truly hollow and empty then this world and how people live in it would be much worse than it is now. [It seems impossible but it is what it is.]



While there are many with power who abuse the word justice, there are also those who strive to protect and enforce the ideal and practice of justice. A politicians idea of justice will be different from a judge's idea of justice. And it's also possible for both to screw up in the administration of justice. That's called human error.[/QUOTE]





Read my post again. I explicitly stated that the true meaning of justice was being overlooked due to its rampant prevalence in the stock vocabulary of politicians, and thus it is meaningless to say "justice" when the true meaning of justice is no longer there, and the "justice" is actually subject to the opinion of the person who says it.



Edit: Note that I included "justice" in inverted commas, indicating that the "justice" I am referring to is the word, "justice" that politicians so freely use.

 

[Zero Phoenix]

[quote name='Hadriel']





Read my post again. I explicitly stated that the true meaning of justice was being overlooked due to its rampant prevalence in the stock vocabulary of politicians, and thus it is meaningless to say "justice" when the true meaning of justice is no longer there, and the "justice" is actually subject to the opinion of the person who says it.



Edit: Note that I included "justice" in inverted commas, indicating that the "justice" I am referring to is the word, "justice" that politicians so freely use.

[/QUOTE]





Glad you clarified. I didn't think of you as the type to lose hope in our ideals. No matter how flawed our methods are in acting on them.

 

[Kaze Araki]

Something worth watching, at least from my point of view, and very relevant to this discussion as well;



[YOUTUBE]L6O6sM2Shok[/YOUTUBE]

​

 

[Zero Phoenix]

Where did you find this?

 

[noex1337]

Hahahahaha! It's funny, my views on the entire thing is closer to that hippie's

 

[Kaze Araki]

[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']Where did you find this?[/QUOTE]

I subscribe to it (Rap News), it was first recommended by L. S. Roschon, a pro-Palestinian activist in Youtube.

 

[-lexus-]

Oh I love that general guy. A proper realist .



As for justice, meh, everyone can use the word. Its kinda like how people use the word love I think. They use it everywhere, even in the most inappropriate moments or in the wrong context. So, while according to the dictionary justice (or love for that matter) means something, I think it hardly matters what the dictionary says when everyone is using the words while the mean something else.



Although, in this case I think you can say that justice has been served.

 

[Zero Phoenix]

[quote name=''[lexus'];83297']Oh I love that general guy. A proper realist.[/QUOTE]



What is your definition of a proper realist? Nevermind, I don't really care.







[quote name=''[lexus'];83297']...I think it hardly matters what the dictionary says when everyone is using the words while the mean something else.[/QUOTE]



That explains your fear of etymology.

 

[Kaze Araki]

I love how General Baxter use the words play to point out the irony;



You can't spell "justice" without the US

And it's called "justice" cause it's just us that's justified

In judging just cause, just wars, and just evidence

Just test this "justice" and get just iced if you mess with us

And end up at the bottom of the ocean like bin Laden



- General Baxter

 

[Rascal]

[quote name='Hadriel']





Read my post again. I explicitly stated that the true meaning of justice was being overlooked due to its rampant prevalence in the stock vocabulary of politicians, and thus it is meaningless to say "justice" when the true meaning of justice is no longer there, and the "justice" is actually subject to the opinion of the person who says it.



Edit: Note that I included "justice" in inverted commas, indicating that the "justice" I am referring to is the word, "justice" that politicians so freely use.

[/QUOTE]

sooo im going to disagree with both you and zero... because i like disagreeing



lets see... ._. humans made words .... lots of them.... so how do you define a word? is it the original meaning or what the word has come to mean?

for example ..... racist words like nigger... not really a racist word until we made it so~



I think i lost my point.... uh, i think my point was that the word justice will mean what ever people use it to mean, not what it "should" mean.



x.x ok... pointless argument complete

 

[-lexus-]

[quote name='ZERO PHOENIX']What is your definition of a proper realist? Nevermind, I don't really care.[/QUOTE]

Machiavelli, Bismarck. They were pure realists. Currently, the American foreign policy is also mostly driven by realist motives. That is, the interests of the USA come first and foremost, and everything else is not that important.

 

[Biomega]

[quote name=''[lexus'];87004']That is, the interests of the USA come first and foremost, and everything else is not that important.[/QUOTE]Isn't that a Materialist? America is always branded as a Materialistic nation(by the youknow), seeking only the benefits from its spoils.



From that speech, all I can say is that the word 'Justice' is mostly used to denote 'retribution' aka Killing the "Bad" guy.

 

[Kaze Araki]

[quote name=''[lexus'];87004']Machiavelli, Bismarck. They were pure realists. Currently, the American foreign policy is also mostly driven by realist motives. That is, the interests of the USA come first and foremost, and everything else is not that important.[/QUOTE]



John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt (both distinguish Professors and Realists), in their magnum opus; "The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy (2007)" pointed out that U.S. foreign policy (especially in the Middle East) is clearly dictated by Israel (through her White House lobbyists) as such that they actually harm American interests.



I know that this evidence is not as outstanding as your evidence, but at least I cited an academic reference.

 

[-lexus-]

[quote name='Kaze Araki']John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt (both distinguish Professors and Realists), in their magnum opus; "The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy (2007)" pointed out that U.S. foreign policy (especially in the Middle East) is clearly dictated by Israel (through her White House lobbyists) as such that they actually harm American interests.



I know that this evidence is not as outstanding as your evidence, but at least I cited an academic reference.[/QUOTE]



I said mostly. And often you can find multiple IR theories at work at the same time. They are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Hadriel]

[quote name='Faux Angel']sooo im going to disagree with both you and zero... because i like disagreeing



lets see... ._. humans made words .... lots of them.... so how do you define a word? is it the original meaning or what the word has come to mean?

for example ..... racist words like nigger... not really a racist word until we made it so~



I think i lost my point.... uh, i think my point was that the word justice will mean what ever people use it to mean, not what it "should" mean.



x.x ok... pointless argument complete[/QUOTE]



Exactly my point. Humans have taken the word "justice" and tweaked its definition to suit their own personal agendas. The word "justice" as used by them is a farce, a facade blocking the true definition of justice as defined by those who came up with it.

 

[Kaze Araki]

[quote name=''[lexus'];87715']I said mostly. And often you can find multiple IR theories at work at the same time. They are not mutually exclusive.[/QUOTE]

Evidence please?