Celebrating Death, the Dead, and the Dying

[-lexus-]

[quote name='noex1337']Glad to see you still didn't answer the question.[/QUOTE]

If you had read what I said, you would have seen that Id given you the answer. There is no answer. There exists no fine line between barbarity and civilization. It are constructions we made up ourselves in order to feel ourselves superior compared to other people. And because of that, anyone who draws such a line between barbarity and civilized is just drawing a personal line that only fits in his own perception.

 

[noex1337]

[quote name=''[lexus'];78228']If you had read what I said, you would have seen that Id given you the answer. There is no answer. There exists no fine line between barbarity and civilization. It are constructions we made up ourselves in order to feel ourselves superior compared to other people. And because of that, anyone who draws such a line between barbarity and civilized is just drawing a personal line that only fits in his own perception.[/QUOTE]



Well, since you want to go that route, I'll follow along for a bit. Tell me, what is your definition of civilized?

 

[-lexus-]

Hmmm, good question, and Im afraid Ill have to come back to that later. I never really thought much about what I believe is civilized and what is not.



EDIT: I came up with something quicker then I expected. For me being civilized is being completely and utterly selfless.

 

[noex1337]

[quote name=''[lexus'];78245']Hmmm, good question, and Im afraid Ill have to come back to that later. I never really thought much about what I believe is civilized and what is not.



EDIT: I came up with something quicker then I expected. For me being civilized is being completely and utterly selfless.[/QUOTE]



That makes absolutely no sense to me, but I'll allow you to explain why you chose that definition.

 

[Kaze Araki]

[quote name='noex1337']That makes absolutely no sense to me, but I'll allow you to explain why you chose that definition.[/QUOTE]

I second you on this.

 

[Ataraxia]

Then people are not civilized at all and such a thing as civilization does not exist.

 

[-lexus-]

[quote name='noex1337']That makes absolutely no sense to me, but I'll allow you to explain why you chose that definition.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for demonstrating why I am right when I say that civilized behavior is personal to everyone, and that drawing a line between barbarity and civility is impossible to generalize due to this.



Think of it like this. It has for a long time been the elite who always yelled the loudest that they were 'civilized'. Their definition of civilized generally consisted of having table manners and a decent education. They could otherwise behave like brutal swines in all things, as long as they knew table manners and had some educational background. Why these 2 things that made them civilized over the masses? Because these 2 things served them, made them stand apart from the poor masses who couldnt afford a decent education and had little with 'table manners'.



And do you think that these masses, who had no table manners and no education, thought of themselves as brutes or barbarians because they lacked these things? Of course not. They thought of themselves as civilized on the merit of being French or British or German, compared to the folk of some rival country, who by definition of belonging of the other country were barbaric.



No, civilized has always meant to most people the very thing that they think makes them better then the rest. For rich people, its things that only rich people can afford, for poorer people, it are the things that you get for being part of a certain country or region. Its just a self serving bias, designed to make people feel good about themselves.



[quote name='Ataraxia']Then people are not civilized at all and such a thing as civilization does not exist.[/QUOTE]

I perhaps should have added my definition of barbarity which is being a completely selfish person. So yeah, no one is civilized, but only a few are barbarians in that respect. Most people are simply neither, they are just people. Human beings, and they do what human beings do. Having such superficial rituals like table manners or being smarter then others because you can afford a better education doesnt change that, nor does it make you a better human being.



Oh, and civilization has absolutely nothing to do with being 'civilized'. It refers to a culture that has or had their own government or some form of governing body that unites it to some extend.

 

[noex1337]

[quote name=''[lexus'];78653']Thank you for demonstrating why I am right when I say that civilized behavior is personal to everyone, and that drawing a line between barbarity and civility is impossible to generalize due to this.

[/QUOTE]

What?

[quote name=''[lexus'];78653']

Think of it like this. It has for a long time been the elite who always yelled the loudest that they were 'civilized'. Their definition of civilized generally consisted of having table manners and a decent education. They could otherwise behave like brutal swines in all things, as long as they knew table manners and had some educational background. Why these 2 things that made them civilized over the masses? Because these 2 things served them, made them stand apart from the poor masses who couldnt afford a decent education and had little with 'table manners'.

[/QUOTE]

OK.



[quote name=''[lexus'];78653']

And do you think that these masses, who had no table manners and no education, thought of themselves as brutes or barbarians because they lacked these things? Of course not. They thought of themselves as civilized on the merit of being French or British or German, compared to the folk of some rival country, who by definition of belonging of the other country were barbaric.

[/QUOTE]

I'm pretty sure uncivilized people don't think they are civilized.



[quote name=''[lexus'];78653']

No, civilized has always meant to most people the very thing that they think makes them better then the rest. For rich people, its things that only rich people can afford, for poorer people, it are the things that you get for being part of a certain country or region. Its just a self serving bias, designed to make people feel good about themselves.

[/QUOTE]

Yeah, you're still not making any sense.



[quote name=''[lexus'];78653']

I perhaps should have added my definition of barbarity which is being a completely selfish person. So yeah, no one is civilized, but only a few are barbarians in that respect. Most people are simply neither, they are just people. Human beings, and they do what human beings do. Having such superficial rituals like table manners or being smarter then others because you can afford a better education doesnt change that, nor does it make you a better human being.

[/QUOTE]

Being civilized and being barbaric is mutually exclusive. There is no middle ground.



[quote name=''[lexus'];78653']

Oh, and civilization has absolutely nothing to do with being 'civilized'. It refers to a culture that has or had their own government or some form of governing body that unites it to some extend.[/QUOTE]

And now you make sense again.



Civilized is merely advanced human culture, which is characterized by advanced education and a greater sense of codependency. It has nothing to do with absolute selfishness or absolute selflessness. Unlike what you believe, it is theoretically possible for everyone to be civilized, which is one of the goals of the trans-humanist movement.

 

[-lexus-]

[quote name='noex1337']Civilized is merely advanced human culture, which is characterized by advanced education and a greater sense of codependency. It has nothing to do with absolute selfishness or absolute selflessness. Unlike what you believe, it is theoretically possible for everyone to be civilized, which is one of the goals of the trans-humanist movement.[/QUOTE]

Really now, so you would say that, say...the Nazis were a civilized bunch? They fit your criteria. And even if they dont, they were quite full of themselves about how civilized and cultured they thought of themselves. You will hear no Nazi ever say that he regards himself as barbaric.



And so, youd also say that a poor American highschool drop out is uncivilized and will regard himself as such. Well, shall we ask a bunch and see if they think themselves as barbarians. I wouldnt rule it out that they would punch you in the face for suggesting that.

 

[noex1337]

[quote name=''[lexus'];79310']Really now, so you would say that, say...the Nazis were a civilized bunch? They fit your criteria. And even if they dont, they were quite full of themselves about how civilized and cultured they thought of themselves. You will hear no Nazi ever say that he regards himself as barbaric.



And so, youd also say that a poor American highschool drop out is uncivilized and will regard himself as such. Well, shall we ask a bunch and see if they think themselves as barbarians. I wouldnt rule it out that they would punch you in the face for suggesting that.[/QUOTE]



You realize that the nazis were a political party right? That should show you how weak your argument is.

 

[Zero Phoenix]

super_gui_1

These contradictions. These lies. I knew super_gui was stalking me.





[quote name='noex1337']You realize that the nazis were a political party right? That should show you how weak your argument is.[/QUOTE]





Not only that Noex but he admires and respects Hitler for his achievements. Yet here is slanders the Nazi party. I guess you can have your cake and eat it too eh [lexus]?

 

[-lexus-]

[quote name='noex1337']You realize that the nazis were a political party right? That should show you how weak your argument is.[/QUOTE]

Nazis isnt a party. The NSDAP is a party. Or you mean the Nazi Party? I meant neither when I say Nazis. That term is used for everyone who was either a member of the NSDAP or who subscribed to their ideology. In other words, the people. And people are supposed to be civilized or barbarous. So, are people who subscribe to the Nazi ideology (official Nazi party ideology) barbarous or not.



If thats to cliche, then answer this, are people from a Indian slum civilized people yes or no. If not, do you honestly believe that if you ask a person from these slums if he think he is a barbarian he will say 'yeah sure, Im such an incredible barbarian. Conan is nothing compared to me' (or something along those lines).



EDIT: Lies? Seriously?

 

[noex1337]

[quote name=''[lexus'];79389']Nazis isnt a party. The NSDAP is a party. Or you mean the Nazi Party? I meant neither when I say Nazis. That term is used for everyone who was either a member of the NSDAP or who subscribed to their ideology. In other words, the people. And people are supposed to be civilized or barbarous. So, are people who subscribe to the Nazi ideology (official Nazi party ideology) barbarous or not.

[/QUOTE]

If that's the case, then you are attacking a belief system and not the behaviors of a group of people. Once again irrelevant.



[quote name=''[lexus'];79389']

If thats to cliche, then answer this, are people from a Indian slum civilized people yes or no. If not, do you honestly believe that if you ask a person from these slums if he think he is a barbarian he will say 'yeah sure, Im such an incredible barbarian. Conan is nothing compared to me' (or something along those lines).

[/QUOTE]

That's more an issue of semantics than civility. If you ask people from the indian slum if they were civilized, they would not say yes, because the way they live is not on the standards of civilized society. However, they wouldn't be quick to call themselves barbarians. Why? Because that word has negative connotations to it. It's exactly the same as telling someone their daughter passed away as opposed to saying she was brutally murdered. It doesn't change the fact that their daughter is dead, just like it doesn't change the nature in which the Indians live.



To recap (so that we do not go too far off topic):

Your definition of civility is foolish

Civilized society does exist

Celebrating the death of another human being is barbaric (think back to the roman gladiator fights)

The americans in that video were not acting in a manner befitting those living in a civilized society

 

[-lexus-]

[quote name='noex1337']If that's the case, then you are attacking a belief system and not the behaviors of a group of people. Once again irrelevant.[/QUOTE]

Someones belief system causes him to act in a certain way. I had hoped that you would have picked up on that when I mentioned Nazis. Sadly, you didnt, and instead sought to avoid the question I asked. So again, were the Nazis civilized yes or no. And with that I mean, were the things the Nazis did (ranging from their mass rallies to the holocaust) things civilized people would be doing according to you.

That's more an issue of semantics than civility. If you ask people from the indian slum if they were civilized, they would not say yes, because the way they live is not on the standards of civilized society. However, they wouldn't be quick to call themselves barbarians. Why? Because that word has negative connotations to it. It's exactly the same as telling someone their daughter passed away as opposed to saying she was brutally murdered. It doesn't change the fact that their daughter is dead, just like it doesn't change the nature in which the Indians live.

Do you believe youre 'civilized'?

To recap (so that we do not go too far off topic):

Your definition of civility is foolish

Civilized society does exist

Celebrating the death of another human being is barbaric (think back to the roman gladiator fights)

The americans in that video were not acting in a manner befitting those living in a civilized society

Which is entirely your opinion. Thank you again, for personally demonstrating my point that it invariably all comes down to peoples opinion on what includes civilized and what not.

 

[noex1337]

[quote name=''[lexus'];79476']Someones belief system causes him to act in a certain way. I had hoped that you would have picked up on that when I mentioned Nazis. Sadly, you didnt, and instead sought to avoid the question I asked. So again, were the Nazis civilized yes or no. And with that I mean, were the things the Nazis did (ranging from their mass rallies to the holocaust) things civilized people would be doing according to you.

[/QUOTE]

That's exactly the same as asking "are democrats civilized" or "is the tea party civilized". That's merely a belief system. Now I'll answer the question I believe you want me to answer "were WWII germans civilized". With my limited knowledge, I would say that the answer is yes. Given the scenario, I think WWII era germans behaved in a manner befitting civilized society. That being said, a majority of them were willing to put the protection of themselves before that of jews, but that has nothing to do with civility, that's just human nature.



[quote name=''[lexus'];79476']

Do you believe youre 'civilized'?

[/QUOTE]

According to my definition, yes. Just try and prove me wrong.



[quote name=''[lexus'];79476']

Which is entirely your opinion. Thank you again, for personally demonstrating my point that it invariably all comes down to peoples opinion on what includes civilized and what not.[/QUOTE]

No, now you are trying to avoid the fact that your definition was foolish by bringing this within the realm of relativism.

 

[-lexus-]

[quote name='noex1337']That's exactly the same as asking "are democrats civilized" or "is the tea party civilized". That's merely a belief system. Now I'll answer the question I believe you want me to answer "were WWII germans civilized". With my limited knowledge, I would say that the answer is yes. Given the scenario, I think WWII era germans behaved in a manner befitting civilized society. That being said, a majority of them were willing to put the protection of themselves before that of jews, but that has nothing to do with civility, that's just human nature. [/QUOTE]

So, you would say that the holocaust and all its horrors were acts of civilized men? That the senseless killing perpetuated by the SS was a civilized thing to do?

According to my definition, yes. Just try and prove me wrong.

And why do you think you are civilized? What makes you civilized, and say, people from an Indian slum not?

No, now you are trying to avoid the fact that your definition was foolish by bringing this within the realm of relativism.

What fact? That my definition is foolish? Thats not a fact, thats an opinion. Youd have to provide rock solid actual evidence before that becomes a fact.

 

[noex1337]

[quote name=''[lexus'];79633']So, you would say that the holocaust and all its horrors were acts of civilized men? That the senseless killing perpetuated by the SS was a civilized thing to do?





And why do you think you are civilized? What makes you civilized, and say, people from an Indian slum not?





What fact? That my definition is foolish? Thats not a fact, thats an opinion. Youd have to provide rock solid actual evidence before that becomes a fact.[/QUOTE]

You're grasping at straws here. Give it up.

 

[-lexus-]

[quote name='noex1337']You're grasping at straws here. Give it up.[/QUOTE]

Thats avoiding my question.

 

[noex1337]

[quote name=''[lexus'];79633']So, you would say that the holocaust and all its horrors were acts of civilized men? That the senseless killing perpetuated by the SS was a civilized thing to do? [/QUOTE]

War is barbaric. That's all there is to it. Everything else was irrelevant.

 

[-lexus-]

[quote name='noex1337']War is barbaric. That's all there is to it. Everything else was irrelevant.[/QUOTE]

Thank you, but I was more interested in why you see yourself as civilized and people from some slum as barbaric. Or in other words, Im asking for your precise definition of civilized.