Is man obliged to serve his country?
- Thread starter Hadriel
- Start date
Not if your country is only in the process of making.
The new gouverment called. And people answered. I don't recall anyone being lynched or shot if he/she said no.
Lolz..same here. <.< Thnx god i was a child. <3 But my father wasn't.
Arson. o.o
Serbia + Croatia = A perfect example of a war about freedom.
But in our example. We won = Instant genocide accusation.
Yey!
True.
The new gouverment called. And people answered. I don't recall anyone being lynched or shot if he/she said no.
Lolz..same here. <.< Thnx god i was a child. <3 But my father wasn't.
Arson. o.o
Serbia + Croatia = A perfect example of a war about freedom.
But in our example. We won = Instant genocide accusation.
Yey!
True.
I LIKE you!
I like you Arachna. You caught my satire quite well. :blush:
Does government not yield its own brand of slavery?
The pen may not be mightier than the sword but my laptop protects me from a bullet. :grin:
Hmmm, touche Arachna. Touche.
True.
I like you Arachna. You caught my satire quite well. :blush:
Not if your country is only in the process of making.
The new gouverment called. And people answered. I don't recall anyone being lynched or shot if he/she said no.
The new gouverment called. And people answered. I don't recall anyone being lynched or shot if he/she said no.
The pen may not be mightier than the sword but my laptop protects me from a bullet. :grin:
Hmmm, touche Arachna. Touche.
True.
It comes so natural to me. I can't help it.
Any kind of government is equal to some sort of slavery this days.
Power is a sharp tool that can make people do anything. Anytime. And anywhere.
Lolz..true.
I was just hiding under the table,when bombs where droping.
That helps too. :cool2:
On the other hand. I don't think i would survive if Serbians did hit my house. <.<
Guess i was lucky <3
Comeback's are mah thing. What can i say.
Btw..
Ever heard of a wining army in all of the history. That was blamed for a genocide after the victory was already achieved?
It is kinda funny.
Any kind of government is equal to some sort of slavery this days.
Power is a sharp tool that can make people do anything. Anytime. And anywhere.
Lolz..true.
I was just hiding under the table,when bombs where droping.
That helps too. :cool2:
On the other hand. I don't think i would survive if Serbians did hit my house. <.<
Guess i was lucky <3
Comeback's are mah thing. What can i say.
Btw..
Ever heard of a wining army in all of the history. That was blamed for a genocide after the victory was already achieved?
It is kinda funny.
I reject both arguments completely. Men should serve one thing only; that is humanity. Nationalism is a pointless, barbaric and retarded stone age idea of which must be eliminated to minimize trivial wars.
Nationalism is our form of incest, is our idolatry, is our insanity. "Patriotism" is its cult. It should hardly be necessary to say, that by "patriotism" I mean that attitude which puts the own nation above humanity, above the principles of truth and justice; not the loving interest in one's own nation, which is the concern with the nation's spiritual as much as with its material welfare — never with its power over other nations. Just as love for one individual which excludes the love for others is not love, love for one's country which is not part of one's love for humanity is not love, but idolatrous worship.
Nationalism is our form of incest, is our idolatry, is our insanity. "Patriotism" is its cult. It should hardly be necessary to say, that by "patriotism" I mean that attitude which puts the own nation above humanity, above the principles of truth and justice; not the loving interest in one's own nation, which is the concern with the nation's spiritual as much as with its material welfare — never with its power over other nations. Just as love for one individual which excludes the love for others is not love, love for one's country which is not part of one's love for humanity is not love, but idolatrous worship.
- Erich Fromm, in The Sane Society (1955)
I know,this is kinda silly to say.
But some times. Patriotism,even if it is considered as a cult. Can bring some good things.
From my exp. patriotism made my country.And it is still a strong bond that is helping Croatians survive wars every 50 years or so.
Patriotism is not out of date for us, but it must be followed by a high degree of tolerance,
In my country at least,we still struggle with the last part.
Can't there be critical and uncritical patriotism? I was just wondering,about that.
But some times. Patriotism,even if it is considered as a cult. Can bring some good things.
From my exp. patriotism made my country.And it is still a strong bond that is helping Croatians survive wars every 50 years or so.
Patriotism is not out of date for us, but it must be followed by a high degree of tolerance,
In my country at least,we still struggle with the last part.
Can't there be critical and uncritical patriotism? I was just wondering,about that.
Its funny since Nationalism is a relatively new idea that formed pretty much during the industrial revolution. It wasnt even really possible before that.
Also, yes, nationalism can lead to certain excesses, it however, also gives people a group identity. It can create unity, and form bonds that are very strong. Without it, people would only be individuals, living in family or tribal bonds, their ties of loyalty never exceeding further then the local village. It would be chaos, like during medieval times. Any sense of order would be superficial and only be there in name. So, it can create peace and order as well.
Nationalism and the methods it uses are a necessary evil.
Also, yes, nationalism can lead to certain excesses, it however, also gives people a group identity. It can create unity, and form bonds that are very strong. Without it, people would only be individuals, living in family or tribal bonds, their ties of loyalty never exceeding further then the local village. It would be chaos, like during medieval times. Any sense of order would be superficial and only be there in name. So, it can create peace and order as well.
Nationalism and the methods it uses are a necessary evil.
Counter-intuitively, I do support any nationalistic struggle, not because I agree with nationalism, but because principally - from an Anarchistic point of view; associations must be voluntary and not under the threat of force.
Nevertheless, nationalism has always consistently bring out the worst in humanity most of the time. Take a look at Jewish nationalism for example, which already prevalent since Biblical time.
Nevertheless, nationalism has always consistently bring out the worst in humanity most of the time. Take a look at Jewish nationalism for example, which already prevalent since Biblical time.
What substantially differentiate Hrvati, Bosanci and Srbi? Aren't these three actually coming from the same South Slavic stock? And what did nationalism and patriotism brought upon the Balkan peninsula that were more prominent than wars and genocides?
War is primarily not about victory or defeat but about death and the infliction of death. It represents the total failure of the human spirit.
Robert Fisk - The Great War of Civilization (2005)
And nationalism almost always breed wars, or at the very least part of the main ingredient for wars.
See 1 and 2 Maccabees for clearest example.
War is primarily not about victory or defeat but about death and the infliction of death. It represents the total failure of the human spirit.
Robert Fisk - The Great War of Civilization (2005)
And nationalism almost always breed wars, or at the very least part of the main ingredient for wars.
See 1 and 2 Maccabees for clearest example.
Yeah, but it also brought about social reform (see the German Mathematical economical school) social cohesion, the creation of the nation, and all the positive works associated with that, not to mention the art needed to create some sort of cultural cohesion.
Id say those are pretty positive things as well. So I wouldnt say that Nationalism only brings about war.
Okay, I will, thanks.
Id say those are pretty positive things as well. So I wouldnt say that Nationalism only brings about war.
Okay, I will, thanks.
Well, to add some more to this, there are different kinds of nationalism. I think you can roughly divide them in two camps. The kind of nationalism that promotes nationalism based on the idea of exclusion and thus becomes xenophobic at some point, and the kind that doesnt. Id say that America for a long time is the perfect example of the second kind. The American ideal has always been that it was open (I realize that this wasnt always practically the case) for everyone to start their own life and make something out of it. It didnt matter where you came from. And the result is telling. You have English, Irish, Germans, Italians, Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc, all saying that they are American first but they also keep a large part of their cultural background, without these two loyalties coming into significant conflict with each other.
Unlike in Europe at the moment, where we are going once again back to the exclusive/xenophobic kind of nationalism.
Still, Id argue then that one half of nationalism then is relatively harmless, as it doesnt preach the superiority of one group over the other.
Im curious though, how do you think that the creation of a nation can be done without the use of nationalism? The whole idea behind nation creation basically automatically falls within some form of nationalism...
Unlike in Europe at the moment, where we are going once again back to the exclusive/xenophobic kind of nationalism.
Still, Id argue then that one half of nationalism then is relatively harmless, as it doesnt preach the superiority of one group over the other.
Im curious though, how do you think that the creation of a nation can be done without the use of nationalism? The whole idea behind nation creation basically automatically falls within some form of nationalism...
How so? Nations only really exist since the 19th century. And so far they have been the most successful at uniting large groups of people under a single banner.
Look at Africa after it was decolonized. Thats the world where there are no nations, only states. Look at Africa before it was colonized. Thats a world without States or Nations. Neither look like something Id like to live in.
And all the major wars America participated in, I dont believe any was caused by Nationalism on Americas part.
Look at Africa after it was decolonized. Thats the world where there are no nations, only states. Look at Africa before it was colonized. Thats a world without States or Nations. Neither look like something Id like to live in.
And all the major wars America participated in, I dont believe any was caused by Nationalism on Americas part.
No, nations already exist since ancient time.
There were nations before the colonizations. Colonialism and later independence movements divided these nations within the boundary of several artificial states.
The war in Iraq and Afghanistan cannot commence without strong nationalistic fervor pumped in to the brains of ignorance Americans. If the majority of Americans weren't nationalistic, the war wouldn't even become a reality. Obviously, you can't sell a war by saying that you want the other country's oil - that's when nationalism steps in.
There were nations before the colonizations. Colonialism and later independence movements divided these nations within the boundary of several artificial states.
The war in Iraq and Afghanistan cannot commence without strong nationalistic fervor pumped in to the brains of ignorance Americans. If the majority of Americans weren't nationalistic, the war wouldn't even become a reality. Obviously, you can't sell a war by saying that you want the other country's oil - that's when nationalism steps in.
Religion and territory are the primal differences.
But they are culturally far more differentiated then for example Ireland and Britain.
We wheren't one big happy family to start with. If you know what i mean. lol
Well. The state i live in is one thing it brought. I guess.
And i don't agree with the you on saying that Balkan is more prominent.
It isn't our fault we are on a perfect crossroad. Just remember the Turkish empire.
But they are culturally far more differentiated then for example Ireland and Britain.
We wheren't one big happy family to start with. If you know what i mean. lol
Well. The state i live in is one thing it brought. I guess.
And i don't agree with the you on saying that Balkan is more prominent.
It isn't our fault we are on a perfect crossroad. Just remember the Turkish empire.
No, States existed since ancient times. But State and Nation are two completely different things. The Roman empire was a State, but it lacked a Nation. Furthermore, you can have a State without a Nation (look at medieval Europe, all States, no Nations.) but you cant have a Nation without a State.
A Nation exclusively refers to the people within a country and their cultural identity. You basically get a nation when people start to refer to themselves as Americans, French, Germans instead of New Yorkers, Parisians or Frankfurters. If the people within a country controlled by a state do not recognize themselves as being part of this 'nation', this greater group of people, then you cant speak of a nation.
This idea of a nation and people referring to themselves as being part of such a nation wasnt around till the end of the 18th century. Before that, people identified themselves more with their local surroundings and people they knew then with countless faceless people living all across the country.
Yeah, but nationalism was not a cause. It may have been used as a tool to get people to join the army, but you cant blame nationalism as the cause for the invasion of Iraq. Unlike for example the first and second world war, where Nationalism clearly did play a role in the start of the war.
And even in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, nationalism plays only a minor role. It lacks so much of the aggression that usually comes with nationalistic wars, where the soldiers of each side believe the other side deserves to be exterminated completely because they are of an inferior race/country/ethnic group. You dont see American soldiers wiping out entire villages because they feel that Iraqi's or Afghans are inferior people that deserve to be killed.
A Nation exclusively refers to the people within a country and their cultural identity. You basically get a nation when people start to refer to themselves as Americans, French, Germans instead of New Yorkers, Parisians or Frankfurters. If the people within a country controlled by a state do not recognize themselves as being part of this 'nation', this greater group of people, then you cant speak of a nation.
This idea of a nation and people referring to themselves as being part of such a nation wasnt around till the end of the 18th century. Before that, people identified themselves more with their local surroundings and people they knew then with countless faceless people living all across the country.
Yeah, but nationalism was not a cause. It may have been used as a tool to get people to join the army, but you cant blame nationalism as the cause for the invasion of Iraq. Unlike for example the first and second world war, where Nationalism clearly did play a role in the start of the war.
And even in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, nationalism plays only a minor role. It lacks so much of the aggression that usually comes with nationalistic wars, where the soldiers of each side believe the other side deserves to be exterminated completely because they are of an inferior race/country/ethnic group. You dont see American soldiers wiping out entire villages because they feel that Iraqi's or Afghans are inferior people that deserve to be killed.