Testing the water.

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VivaLaPony Onee-chan

Sine Deus
#2
#2
Way out of my league... If it was Norwegian I might have been able to understand half the debate lmao, English? no chance... Its a secondary language... Well if I understood it correctly your aiming after more view points of whether or not God exists and how you could explain it? Whats the faith you have and how you believe in things ?



Personally I'm not that theoretical, I tend to use words that might be wrong of meaning, but sounds reasonable to my view...

Well here it goes ? I myself dont believe God as a higher being or something like that, but I do believe that in the early days we had lots of things that could not be explained, which led to the belief of God, and the after life was to cleanse oneself from the fear of death, and give purpose to live. Then the greed of humanity corrupted the sacred arts of believing making it so it would personally benefit them. I myself dont believe in any God, except myself. My motto is "Your the writer of your own play" more or less, you control and create your own life and destiny, with the variables of the decisions and events of those around you. I can't explain whether God exists or not, but I dont believe we should live our lifes according to it.
 
Kaze Araki

Kaze Araki

Libertarian Communist
#3
#3
Here's my latest exchanges of ideas with Getsu;



[quote name='Getsu']So does Kaze-dono mean something like a 'consciousness wave function' or something?[/QUOTE]

Something along those line, that is this "consciousness" has the ability to "observe" which is fundamental in modern physics.



[quote name='Getsu']No idea how to answer the underlying question, out of my understanding...[/QUOTE]

Therefore all the speculations.



[quote name='Getsu']As regarding the brain, neuroscience, quantum biology(?) and (quantum) computing would likely need to develop significantly in order to understand the full complexities of the brain. Although possible, brain emulation, to the extent of things like Ghost in the Shell, where there is a transfer of consciousness to an artificial 'brain', still seems more sci-fi than anything... Whether biological information is more than just chemical reactions and electrical impulses (and ultimately quantum interactions I suppose), I guess, only science will tell.[/QUOTE]

I was thinking along this line as well, although unlike the artificial attempt in Ghost in the Shell, the process here is somewhat happening naturally.



[quote name='Getsu']And I don't think consciousness, if any, would be carried by (the currently known) elementary particles...[/QUOTE]

I speculate that consciousness is electromagnetic and therefore carried-able (?), in a sense - quite similar to how photon carried the information from early universe.



[quote name='Getsu']The thought of consciousness being a physical thing is, weird, for a lack of a better word, imo... A consciousness 'outside of my head' (that is, neurologically) is an unsettling thought....[/QUOTE]

Perhaps it exhibit a kind of wave-particle duality. I recall one of my best friend are able to perform out of body experience and transfer his consciousness into other places.



[quote name='Getsu']Unless science discovers even more fundamental particles or some sort of more fundamental interactions which may play a part in the identity of personal consciousness (idk, maybe a combination of pseudo-quantum interactions, or something, defines consciousness? ...Just throwing it out there...).[/QUOTE]

I'm more inclined towards fundamental interactions since anything smaller than Planck unit may (though not necessarily) be futile to us.



[quote name='Getsu']But then I think it goes onto the deeper (and inherently more purely philosophical than strictly scientific) question of what exactly 'existence', in a purely physical sense, would mean... Here's hoping the ToE sorts this out [/QUOTE]

I'm somewhat seeing a re-convergence of science and philosophy as inevitable in the future, due to the effect of Quantum Mechanic. I cite Hawking's "Model-dependent Realism" (see The Grand Design) as good example of physical logic with massive philosophical implication.



[quote name='Getsu']I see... So is Kaze-dono saying it is possible we, or rather consciousness, 'evolves' into something higher?[/QUOTE]

Yes, higher in a sense that "consciousness" evolves into something that encompassed extra dimensions, and therefore allowing "itself" a different outlook on the same reality.





Source: http://forums.mangafox.com/threads/146783-Proof-of-God.?p=6333616&viewfull=1#post6333616
 
Bloodrazor

Bloodrazor

The Overlord
#6
#6
Ah, Agnostic Athiest, huh? Just like rahrah-chan.



Anyways, I don't believe that there is any physical manifestation that proves that there is a God, although I'm sure google will give us different results lol. However I do believe the existence of God is among the people that believe in that particular God.
 
-lexus-

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
#8
#8
Any sufficiently advanced society will seem like gods to primitives. Send back a modern human to the day of the Neanderthalers and he would be worshiped like a god. Assuming he takes a gun with him. So anything relating to 'God' could just as well be about aliens who are just a few thousand years ahead of us with science and stuff.



Personally I believe it to be irrelevant if there is a God. I highly doubt a being such advanced as God really cares for one insignificant race on some backwater world somewhere in the universe. Besides that, its powers and understanding would be so different from us that to try and understand it would be impossible for our brains, just like a brain cannot process the idea of infinity or nothing. Its from such a higher order, so beyond our concepts of space and time that it would drive you insane. Kinda like the stuff Lovecraft writes about.



As for Quantum Mechanics being metaphysical, they are not. Mostly because through math part of it can be 'proven' but mostly because its a valid field of science, and science rejects anything metaphysical from the start. It merely seems to approach the metaphysical for some, due to the incredible complex nature of it. Its like only understood by a few thousand people in the world at best. The rest thinks they understand it, but they dont. As the popular saying goes, anyone who claims to understand Quantum Mechanics did not understand it :p



Of course, Im not to judge. Maybe people here do actually have a PhD in Quantum Mechanics.
 
Kaze Araki

Kaze Araki

Libertarian Communist
#9
#9
My question was; what are the metaphysical implication of Quantum Mechanic?

Not is Quantum Mechanic metaphysical?

Also, the saying was by Feynman.



I'm currently writing the draft for Infinite Duress Restructuring.

Please do offer your ideas once it is up.





EDIT: One surely doesn't need a PhD to understand that Quantum Mechanic has metaphysical implication.
 
-lexus-

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
#10
#10
It has no implications really. Just like science never had any real implications for the Christian definition of God. Sure, suddenly diseases are no longer the wrath of God and stuff. But that is just part of the faith built around said God. And real Christians still easily manage to find a way around science anyways. If anything, Quantum Mechanics has some minor implications in the things people will still contribute to metaphysical things. Althbough I assume it will mostly just be teens who replaced 'Metaphysical' with 'Quantum Mechanics'. They just switched names, added some fancy words to their dictionaries so they sound smart when they are discussing stuff on the Internet.



But really, because the amount of people that understands what Quantum Mechanics is about is so minimal, I doubt it will change much about peoples believes in Gods and demons.
 
Kaze Araki

Kaze Araki

Libertarian Communist
#11
#11
EDIT: Sorry, I accidentally edited your post. I thought I was making my own post.



It has no implications really. Just like science never had any real implications for the Christian definition of God. Sure, suddenly diseases are no longer the wrath of God and stuff. But that is just part of the faith built around said God. And real Christians still easily manage to find a way around science anyways. If anything, Quantum Mechanics has some minor implications in the things people will still contribute to metaphysical things. Althbough I assume it will mostly just be teens who replaced 'Metaphysical' with 'Quantum Mechanics'. They just switched names, added some fancy words to their dictionaries so they sound smart when they are discussing stuff on the Internet.
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Is Schrodinger's Cat scientific?



But really, because the amount of people that understands what Quantum Mechanics is about is so minimal, I doubt it will change much about peoples believes in Gods and demons.
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I'll be precise in what Feynman said;

I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics.
 
-lexus-

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
#12
#12
No, Schrödingers Cat was a thought experiment designed by Schrödinger to show how absolutely stupid the whole idea of a superposition (?) is as it would allow something to be both dead and alive at the same time. And it cant be proven, ever.



Oh, and yeah, no one completely understands Quantum Mechanics as its a term used to describe a variety of different fields of research. And since its so highly specialized, scientists only tend to understand their own little field of science.
 
Kaze Araki

Kaze Araki

Libertarian Communist
#13
#13
[quote name=''[lexus'];51057']No, Schrödingers Cat was a thought experiment designed by Schrödinger to show how absolutely stupid the whole idea of a superposition (?) is as it would allow something to be both dead and alive at the same time. And it cant be proven, ever.[/QUOTE]

Schrodinger's Cat is the consequence of Copenhagen Interpretation which is the standard mainstream model as of currently. You just destroyed your own argument.



[quote name=''[lexus'];51057']Oh, and yeah, no one completely understands Quantum Mechanics as its a term used to describe a variety of different fields of research. And since its so highly specialized, scientists only tend to understand their own little field of science.[/QUOTE]

Feynman didn't said "no one completely understands", he said; "nobody understands".
 
-lexus-

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
#14
#14
[quote name='Kaiser Chicken Imperial Flu']Schrodinger's Cat is the consequence of Copenhagen Interpretation which is the standard mainstream model as of currently. You just destroyed your own argument.[/QUOTE]

You asked a question, I gave an answer. Which is that Schrödingers Cat is not a scientific experiment, but a thought experiment. I never said he was right or wrong, I just said that was its aim. Because Schrödinger did not agree with the Copenhagen Interpretation.



Btw, you cant prove it because by opening the box and looking at the cat you ruin the experiment.





Feynman didn't said "no one completely understands", he said; "nobody understands".
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Really now. Good work on destroying every argument you will ever make about Quantum Mechanics since you dont understand it anyways :D
 
Kaze Araki

Kaze Araki

Libertarian Communist
#15
#15
[quote name=''[lexus'];51068']You asked a question, I gave an answer. Which is that Schrödingers Cat is not a scientific experiment, but a thought experiment. I never said he was right or wrong, I just said that was its aim. Because Schrödinger did not agree with the Copenhagen Interpretation.



Btw, you cant prove it because by opening the box and looking at the cat you ruin the experiment.[/QUOTE]

The point is;

Copenhagen Interpretation (which is scientific) gave rise to Schrodinger's Cat paradox (which is metaphysical).



[quote name=''[lexus'];51068']Really now. Good work on destroying every argument you will ever make about Quantum Mechanics since you dont understand it anyways :D[/QUOTE]

The point is;

Just because nobody understand it, does not imply that we can't discuss or debate about it.
 
-lexus-

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
#16
#16
[quote name='Kaiser Chicken Imperial Flu']The point is;

Copenhagen Interpretation (which is scientific) gave rise to Schrodinger's Cat paradox (which is metaphysical).[/QUOTE]

Actually, that can be debated. The Copenhagen Interpretation goes way beyond the realm of empirical data. Essentially, the Copenhagen Interpretation is saying that they dont know what the hell they are talking about. Its all about measuring probabilities.



Hardly an exact science.



Besides that, there are several competing models and those are certainly not out of the race yet.
 
Kaze Araki

Kaze Araki

Libertarian Communist
#17
#17
[quote name=''[lexus'];51077']Actually, that can be debated. The Copenhagen Interpretation goes way beyond the realm of empirical data. Essentially, the Copenhagen Interpretation is saying that they dont know what the hell they are talking about. Its all about measuring probabilities.



Hardly an exact science.[/QUOTE]

No such thing as exact science exist in reality.



[quote name=''[lexus'];51077']Besides that, there are several competing models and those are certainly not out of the race yet.[/QUOTE]

That does not negate the fact that scientific models can and does have metaphysical implications. Other interpretations such as MWI also inherently bore metaphysical consequences.
 
-lexus-

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
#18
#18
[quote name='Kaiser Chicken Imperial Flu']No such thing as exact science exist in reality.[/QUOTE]

There is a difference though, between this and say biology. Biology is predictable, it works according to set laws. This? No laws, no nothing. Just varying degrees of predictability. No math to back it up, nothing. Depending on what science philosophy you follow this would already be seen as pseudo science.





That does not negate the fact that scientific models can and does have metaphysical implications. Other interpretations such as MWI also inherently bore metaphysical consequences.
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I admit, the lines between metaphysical and science are a bit blurry. Then again, they were never really that clear to begin with regardless of Quantum Mechanics. And it depends on your interpretation of metaphysical.
 
Kaze Araki

Kaze Araki

Libertarian Communist
#19
#19
[quote name=''[lexus'];51092']There is a difference though, between this and say biology. Biology is predictable, it works according to set laws. This? No laws, no nothing. Just varying degrees of predictability. No math to back it up, nothing. Depending on what science philosophy you follow this would already be seen as pseudo science.[/QUOTE]

Law is a general statement based upon repeated observations, therefore can also be wrong.



[quote name=''[lexus'];51092']I admit, the lines between metaphysical and science are a bit blurry. Then again, they were never really that clear to begin with regardless of Quantum Mechanics. And it depends on your interpretation of metaphysical.[/QUOTE]

The point remain, Quantum Mechanic can and does give metaphysical implication.
 
-lexus-

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
#20
#20
Hmm I guess youre right. It does show new insights into what we are made off and all. Although I doubt anyone actually understands the exact range of implications this all has. Nor do I think it will make much of a difference. The Enlightenment couldnt eradicate the belief in God, so I doubt Quantum Mechanics will.
 
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