The longingness for bondage.

Kaze Araki

Libertarian Communist
#1
Since apparently, writing a detailed explanation - outlining the very purpose of Terra Incognita - requires quite a bit more time than what I previously thought, henceforth here's something interesting to be argued upon while I'm finishing my seemingly daunting task.



People from all across the social class structure talked about freedom, from the petty criminals down the street - to the corrupt politicians sitting in the government, from the wage-slave labors in random sweatshops - to the multimillionaire vacationing on their private hideaway islands in the midst of the Caribbean. But what is freedom actually really means? What does it mean to be free? Is such concept even exist in reality?

I deny the true existence of such concept, but nevertheless accept a pragmatic approach towards it. In fact, I would went even further by asserting that rather than freedom, mankind are unconsciously and instinctively longing for bondage. Indeed, being chained by these very bonds are the very nature of being human.

What say thee?
 

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
#2
What bonds do you mean exactly?

Well, I do believe such a concept exists. Freedom is to do whatever you feel like doing. However, if you would do that, you would get chaos. Rules and laws are in place to prevent this chaos and protect people from to much freedom.
 

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
#4
Well, in that case, I agree. Most humans do have a desire to have at least a certain amount of rules for their own protection. And well, any rule is something that restricts freedom in a way. Chaos is not in most peoples nature.

However, I wouldnt go as far as saying that peoples desire for rules and laws goes as far that they would be willing to become sort of slave with absolutely no freedom.


And lol at the thread title. It did gave me a different impression of what the thread would be about :p
 

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
#8
You mean these noble truths?
Wikipedia said:
Suffering does exist
Suffering arises from attachment to desires
Suffering ceases when attachment to desire ceases
Freedom from suffering is possible by practicing the Eightfold path
Hmm, I suppose I see your point.
 

Kaze Araki

Libertarian Communist
#9
Desires stems out from human primitive selfish unconscious instinct, the very agent that chained mankind to the realm of reality.
Therefore freedom in its true form does not exist, or if one wishes to argue for its existence - such can only exist in death.
 

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
#11
Desires stems out from human primitive selfish unconscious instinct, the very agent that chained mankind to the realm of reality.
Therefore freedom in its true form does not exist, or if one wishes to argue for its existence - such can only exist in death.
hmm, no, I disagree with that. Now youre like saying that we arent free because gravity prevents us to fly around like superman and because of that we cannot truly be free. If such a primitive selfish unconscious instinct really exists, its something you are born with, its part of the human condition. Just as our inability to fly naturally is part of the human condition.
 

Core

Fascinating...
#12
[2:38:52 PM] core.-: the principle of freedom exists
[2:39:05 PM] core.-: but you and I can agree that it is very expensive
[2:39:15 PM] core.-: animals that live purely off instinct
[2:39:20 PM] core.-: or as some would say
[2:39:21 PM] core.-: logic
[2:39:28 PM] core.-: are absolutely free
[2:39:38 PM] core.-: but that is because
[2:39:43 PM] core.-: the systems that were built
[2:39:49 PM] core.-: were built specifically on the foundation of controlling emotions
[2:40:02 PM] core.-: not on the premise of controlling instinct
[2:40:08 PM] core.-: because instinct is pure
[2:40:13 PM] core.-: its basic its simple
[2:40:24 PM] core.-: its why you lock a bear in a cage at the zoo
[2:40:27 PM] core.-: and not behind glass
[2:40:31 PM] core.-: cause you are painfully aware
[2:40:33 PM] core.-: of what it can do
[2:40:36 PM] core.-: there is no question
[2:40:41 PM] core.-: but a human
[2:40:51 PM] core.-: who is capable of so much more destuction
[2:40:56 PM] core.-: is only capable of doing so
[2:41:07 PM] core.-: as long as they are governed by their shallow emotions.

It is expensive... because 92% of the planet will not go against their shallow emotions. Hell theyve forgotten what their instinct is.
 

Rascal

.........................
#13
In fact, I would went even further by asserting that rather than freedom, mankind are unconsciously and instinctively longing for bondage. Indeed, being chained by these very bonds are the very nature of being human.
ja, I think most people prefer bonds to freedom, we like to call them rules and laws. Though, I'm still lost on our definition of freedom here, you know the saying "one man's freedoms end where another man's freedoms begin", would this not mean that simply because there are so many of us, we can not all be free?
 

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
#14
ja, I think most people prefer bonds to freedom, we like to call them rules and laws. Though, I'm still lost on our definition of freedom here, you know the saying "one man's freedoms end where another man's freedoms begin", would this not mean that simply because there are so many of us, we can not all be free?
I think the saying has more to do with the fact that because your freedom does not include the freedom to murder people, you therefor ensure that other people have the freedom to live. Or your freedom of speech ends at discrimination, giving other people the freedom to be openly gay or something.
 

Rascal

.........................
#15
I think the saying has more to do with the fact that because your freedom does not include the freedom to murder people, you therefor ensure that other people have the freedom to live. Or your freedom of speech ends at discrimination, giving other people the freedom to be openly gay or something.
your point is? (sure I agree discrimination is bad, but who are you to tell me I can't) GIMME MY FREEDOM DAMMIT D<
 

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
#16
your point is? (sure I agree discrimination is bad, but who are you to tell me I can't) GIMME MY FREEDOM DAMMIT D<
Just an example trying to explain my interpretation of the saying you quoted. No point really.

Also, society as a whole decided that discrimination is bad. Blame them for taking away your freedom in order to protect another persons freedom.
 

Rascal

.........................
#17
Just an example trying to explain my interpretation of the saying you quoted. No point really. Also, society as a whole decided that discrimination is bad. Blame them for taking away your freedom in order to protect another persons freedom.
right, cuz freedom is now defined as lack of bonds, as long as society approves of what you do. ... the hell? Isn't the point of freedom, to be able to do something that others may NOT like??? which takes us back to why we need bonds, we dont want people having the freedom to murder us in our sleep. Of course, I'm referring to the etymological definition of freedom, not your societal one.
 

Arachna

Spider
Staff member
#18
I can understand freedom as describing the state of a person who is not in bondage. But what, exactly, is bondage in personal freedom??

The majority of folks, when asked about their idea of freedom, regardless of their geography, nationality, or ideology, will presume you are talking abut personal freedom as in free will, autonomy, awakening, and enlightenment.

Lex is talking about political freedom and economic freedom. They are demonstrable, tangible, and physical. One can identify political or economic oppressors, oppressive systems, and oppressive policies and laws. Political and economic freedoms are the most visible and understandable to people.

I kinda think both of the last ones i mentioned are tangled with personal freedom as such.
Both political freedom and economic freedom are systematic and physical manifestations of the frustration of personal freedom. If you know what i mean..

We see this in the massive occurrence of depression and lethargy in Communist states, and the anxious, manic-crazed need-to-consume in Capitalist systems.

Each of these systems fails at the promise for economic freedom.

The promise of political freedom through a democracy or a republic, too soon becomes a façade that only those whom the system serves well, or those who do not look too closely, continue to believe in.

What then, do we really mean by freedom,in the real wolrd as it is today?
 

Rascal

.........................
#19
I can understand freedom as describing the state of a person who is not in bondage. But what, exactly, is bondage in personal freedom?? The majority of folks, when asked about their idea of freedom, regardless of their geography, nationality, or ideology, will presume you are talking abut personal freedom as in free will, autonomy, awakening, and enlightenment. Lex is talking about political freedom and economic freedom. They are demonstrable, tangible, and physical. One can identify political or economic oppressors, oppressive systems, and oppressive policies and laws. Political and economic freedoms are the most visible and understandable to people. I kinda think both of the last ones i mentioned are tangled with personal freedom as such. Both political freedom and economic freedom are systematic and physical manifestations of the frustration of personal freedom. If you know what i mean.. We see this in the massive occurrence of depression and lethargy in Communist states, and the anxious, manic-crazed need-to-consume in Capitalist systems. Each of these systems fails at the promise for economic freedom. The promise of political freedom through a democracy or a republic, too soon becomes a façade that only those whom the system serves well, or those who do not look too closely, continue to believe in. What then, do we really mean by freedom,in the real wolrd as it is today?
well... the problem there would be "we" right? because there's no way in heaven we'd agree on such a thing. Ask some Chinese government official, compare it to some American one.... die of shock. :mad:_@:
 

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
#20
right, cuz freedom is now defined as lack of bonds, as long as society approves of what you do. ... the hell? Isn't the point of freedom, to be able to do something that others may NOT like??? which takes us back to why we need bonds, we dont want people having the freedom to murder us in our sleep. Of course, I'm referring to the etymological definition of freedom, not your societal one.
I didnt make any definitions. I was just responding to what you claimed. And in the end, society does decide where your freedom ends. Its society that makes up the laws right? Isnt it society that decided that getting murdered in your sleep was a bad idea? And isnt it society that has decided that discriminating against people based on race, sex and religion is a stupid thing to do? Your freedom goes as far as society says it can go.

We see this in the massive occurrence of depression and lethargy in Communist states, and the anxious, manic-crazed need-to-consume in Capitalist systems.
Capitalism does offer a great degree of personal freedom. You have a choice in what product you buy. Besides, capitalism is economic democracy. Your money is your vote.


The promise of political freedom through a democracy or a republic, too soon becomes a façade that only those whom the system serves well, or those who do not look too closely, continue to believe in.
Only in slightly more instable countries, or countries that have a short democratic tradition.