Is man obliged to serve his country?

[Hadriel]

This question came to my mind after I saw some examples of overseas education sponsorship programmes which required the person to work in a government organization for a set number of years afterwards. It's not fully relevant, but the question just popped up.

General Arguments

Man is obliged to serve his country
The country has provided him with housing, education, rights, etc. so he is morally bound to help the country

Man is not obliged to serve his country
He has the right to choose which country he wants to serve


What are your opinions on the matter?

 

[-lexus-]

Man is obliged to serve his country
The country has provided him with housing, education, rights, etc. so he is morally bound to help the country

Man has also paid for all those services (at least, I assume he pays his taxes), so no, its hardly an excuse to serve your country.


However, I am a great proponent of model from Starship Troopers. Serve the government to become a citizen and be able to participate in things like politics. Weed out the ones that dont care enough so you ensure that only interested and therefor, informed people participate in the democratic process. No more populists that need appeasing as well.

 

[shard2323]

Birth into a country, to me, does not justify a man having to serve his country. Even more so when doing such a thing would go against his moral stances. My reasoning for this relies heavily upon the fact that a person is often not happy with their country of birth, as I myself am. And, furthermore, that even given this, they may not have the proper funds to leave the country in discussion (As is also exemplary of myself, where canceling my citizenship is one of my life-goals).
The notion that a man should "Pay up" for his share in times of need is not new by any means. Indeed, in and of itself, the argument would hold true if not for the above factors. However, in the end of the day, what the government gives tot he lower-classes these days is pathetic anyway. It is the people who supply the economy, it is the people who populate the military, it is the people who keep a country a country. A government merely exists because of the sociocultural rejection of anarchism that is inherent in Western society (Whether this rejection is on solid grounds or not, I do not feel the need to debate).

 

[Hadriel]

Man has also paid for all those services (at least, I assume he pays his taxes), so no, its hardly an excuse to serve your country.

But without the government, there wouldn't even be these services to begin with. And then there's government subsidies and stuff. What is your argument against that?

However, I am a great proponent of model from Starship Troopers. Serve the government to become a citizen and be able to participate in things like politics. Weed out the ones that dont care enough so you ensure that only interested and therefor, informed people participate in the democratic process. No more populists that need appeasing as well.

I dunno, but using government service as a qualifier for citizenship sounds like pseudo-democracy to me. I mean, through those years of government service it's easy to instil a sense of loyalty in the citizen, so all citizens are automatically pro-government.

 

[-lexus-]

But without the government, there wouldn't even be these services to begin with. And then there's government subsidies and stuff. What is your argument against that?

Yes, without a government, these services wouldnt exist. Thats no argument to serve them though. I mean, following that logic you could say I also have to serve Microsoft because without them Windows wouldnt exist.

Besides, the government consists of people who need the sense of order that the government creates just as much as an average citizen.

As for subsidies, thats also paid for by the tax payer.

I dunno, but using government service as a qualifier for citizenship sounds like pseudo-democracy to me. I mean, through those years of government service it's easy to instil a sense of loyalty in the citizen, so all citizens are automatically pro-government.

Its loyalty to the government as whole, not any of the specific political parties that make up the government.

My point here is mainly that only those who are worthy should be able to interfere or dictate the role and the direction of the government, and not those who dont care enough about what happens to the country.

It would just be a service of say 2-3 years and it could be in all kinds of institutions. Not just the military, but police, fire department, health care, etc. To get a sense of loyalty not just to the government but to the people around you as well.

 

[Hadriel]

Yes, without a government, these services wouldnt exist. Thats no argument to serve them though. I mean, following that logic you could say I also have to serve Microsoft because without them Windows wouldnt exist.

Besides, the government consists of people who need the sense of order that the government creates just as much as an average citizen.

As for subsidies, thats also paid for by the tax payer.

Good comeback. That is a good reason why man is not obliged to serve his country.

Its loyalty to the government as whole, not any of the specific political parties that make up the government.

My point here is mainly that only those who are worthy should be able to interfere or dictate the role and the direction of the government, and not those who dont care enough about what happens to the country.

It would just be a service of say 2-3 years and it could be in all kinds of institutions. Not just the military, but police, fire department, health care, etc. To get a sense of loyalty not just to the government but to the people around you as well.

But who decides if they are worthy or not? The government. That way, the government can just pick pro-government citizens to be in the government.

 

[-lexus-]

But who decides if they are worthy or not? The government. That way, the government can just pick pro-government citizens to be in the government.

No, thats not how it would work. Everyone who wants to join the program can join. It would be open for every person who lives in that nation and wants to be a citizen. It would be the same as applying for a job as civil servant.

 

[Hadriel]

No, thats not how it would work. Everyone who wants to join the program can join. It would be open for every person who lives in that nation and wants to be a citizen. It would be the same as applying for a job as civil servant.

Didn't you say that "only interested and therefor, informed people participate in the democratic process" and "only those who are worthy should be able to interfere or dictate the role and the direction of the government"? Or am I missing something?

 

[-lexus-]

Didn't you say that "only interested and therefor, informed people participate in the democratic process" and "only those who are worthy should be able to interfere or dictate the role and the direction of the government"? Or am I missing something?

I think I havent explained it properly, my apologies for that.

No, under this system, the people who do this few years of service for the government, by working in the military/police/healthcare/something else, are considered worthy of participating in the political process. Because through doing this, they showed that they were willing to sacrifice some of their time for the greater good of the country. By instead of making a lot of money from the start after college/highschool, they joined the military, or helped out in a hospital or elderly day care. That shows civic engagement with society, and people who are that are the ones Id like to see in the government. Not the opportunistic politician who does it for the power or who want to press their own agendas, and dont really care about society that much.

So, people who would join this program would work for the government for a few years, and they would get a special course on the exact workings of the government. So they get explained why the government works in a certain, why certain laws are in place, which institution does what and why. So once they are done, its reasonable to expect from them that they are well informed on how the government works, why it works like it works, and that they are engaged enough to make sure they make an informed decision during election time.

This program would be open to every person living within the country who wants to join. Its not compulsory, and other then voting rights you would get nothing out of it. So if you dont care that much about the government, you can just go to school, get your education, and then go and work, start your own business, earn as much money as you want, etc.

 

[Hadriel]

I think I havent explained it properly, my apologies for that.

No, under this system, the people who do this few years of service for the government, by working in the military/police/healthcare/something else, are considered worthy of participating in the political process. Because through doing this, they showed that they were willing to sacrifice some of their time for the greater good of the country. By instead of making a lot of money from the start after college/highschool, they joined the military, or helped out in a hospital or elderly day care. That shows civic engagement with society, and people who are that are the ones Id like to see in the government. Not the opportunistic politician who does it for the power or who want to press their own agendas, and dont really care about society that much.

So, people who would join this program would work for the government for a few years, and they would get a special course on the exact workings of the government. So they get explained why the government works in a certain, why certain laws are in place, which institution does what and why. So once they are done, its reasonable to expect from them that they are well informed on how the government works, why it works like it works, and that they are engaged enough to make sure they make an informed decision during election time.

This program would be open to every person living within the country who wants to join. Its not compulsory, and other then voting rights you would get nothing out of it. So if you dont care that much about the government, you can just go to school, get your education, and then go and work, start your own business, earn as much money as you want, etc.

No problem. :coolgrin:


Hmm, so only those who can sacrifice some of their time for the country (aka loyal people) are allowed to vote. While this isn't problematic, I can imagine the scenario of a single party dominating the political field with that system. But I digress. Your suggestion seems like a good one, actually.

 

[noex1337]

If a man cares nothing for where he lives, and is perfectly acceptable with invasion by any and all other countries, then so be it. If not, I believe he should be obligated to serve his country.

 

[Zero Phoenix]

If a man cares nothing for where he lives, and is perfectly acceptable with invasion by any and all other countries, then so be it. If not, I believe he should be obligated to serve his country.

It is my constitutional right "not" to bear arms.

 

[noex1337]

It is my constitutional right "not" to bear arms.

It's also your constitutional right to GTFO! In times of war, those are your options.

 

[-lexus-]

No problem. :coolgrin:


Hmm, so only those who can sacrifice some of their time for the country (aka loyal people) are allowed to vote. While this isn't problematic, I can imagine the scenario of a single party dominating the political field with that system. But I digress. Your suggestion seems like a good one, actually.

Its true that one political party can dominate politics, but technically, so can it in a normal democratic system where everyone is allowed to vote.

 

[Zero Phoenix]

It's also your constitutional right to GTFO! In times of war, those are your options.

Ouch. Remind me never to jest around you. :cry:

 

[noex1337]

Ouch. Remind me never to jest around you. :cry:

That was a joke man. I meant of the country, not of the thread. Serve or leave. Those are your options.

 

[Zero Phoenix]

That was a joke man. I meant of the country, not of the thread. Serve or leave. Those are your options.

That sounds like a platform Kim Jong-Il would endorse. You might be right Noex but one of the good things about America is that no one is forced to take a bullet in the ass for their citizenship. Well, at least not since the Civil War. :scared:

You're an American yes? Surely you can appreciate the fact that our freedom extends to whether or not we decide to kill or be killed. And let's keep it real, I'll be frank. I'm not going to serve this country and get killed over a foolish war that doesn't have anything to do with us.

You say serve or leave. How simple. Takes me back to 1991 it does. But what does serving entail? Fighting a war over oil? Does serving our country mean spreading tyranny? If the point of a war is to crush another country and take their resources, should we serve evil if it means serving our country? I think not. We get along well enough (I think) so I'll meet you halfway Noex. You pick up a gun and I'll bring my laptop and we'll head to Afghanistan. How does that sound? If we start planning now we'll be there in the fall with the next wave of American troops butting into the affairs of other countries and getting killed by getting into shit that doesn't have anything to do with them.

Rap with me Noex, from one American to another. You've seen the way the U.S. and its citizens treat its veterans. I'm sure as an American you should know the shit the Vietnam veterans, WWII vets, Gulf War vets, and current vets have to go through. Do you think for a moment they'll treat you any differently because of your code of honor?

 

[noex1337]

That sounds like a platform Kim Jong-Il would endorse. You might be right Noex but one of the good things about America is that no one is forced to take a bullet in the ass for their citizenship. Well, at least not since the Civil War. :scared:

You're an American yes? Surely you can appreciate the fact that our freedom extends to whether or not we decide to kill or be killed. And let's keep it real, I'll be frank. I'm not going to serve this country and get killed over a foolish war that doesn't have anything to do with us.

You say serve or leave. How simple. Takes me back to 1991 it does. But what does serving entail? Fighting a war over oil? Does serving our country mean spreading tyranny? If the point of a war is to crush another country and take their resources, should we serve evil if it means serving our country? I think not. We get along well enough (I think) so I'll meet you halfway Noex. You pick up a gun and I'll bring my laptop and we'll head to Afghanistan. How does that sound? If we start planning now we'll be there in the fall with the next wave of American troops butting into the affairs of other countries and getting killed by getting into shit that doesn't have anything to do with them.

Rap with me Noex, from one American to another. You've seen the way the U.S. and its citizens treat its veterans. I'm sure as an American you should know the shit the Vietnam veterans, WWII vets, Gulf War vets, and current vets have to go through. Do you think for a moment they'll treat you any differently because of your code of honor?

There's many ways to serve your country other than picking up a gun, you know. Your a journalist right? There's always need for you guys in a war. But my statement was moreso about invasion. I don't count any of our current exploits as something worth dying over. Dying for freedom? Sure. Dying for Resources? Not at all. But that's what the majority thinks which is why the system works. I think the OP was referring to the draft though, which is reserved for more serious endeavors (maybe?). Either way, if you enjoy the benefits of being an American, you must be able to pay the price.

 

[Arachna]

I would say. In my book "serving your country" made my country.

No matter of the way it was done.
By writing news,or radio propaganda.
Or on the battlefield.On the first line of fire.
Some people believe in "their" country, so deeply. That they would go fight for it. No matter what the cost is.

It can be a positive thing.
But it depends on how the country's leaders decide,it is to be used.

 

[Zero Phoenix]

I would say. In my book "serving your country" made my country.

No matter of the way it was done.

Slavery!

By writing news,or radio propaganda.

I'm SAFE!!

Or on the battlefield.On the first line of fire.

Oil

Some people believe in "their" country, so deeply. That they would go fight for it. No matter what the cost is.

Jihad

It can be a positive thing.

Hmmm...

But it depends on how the country's leaders decide,it is to be used.

Foreign policy.