"TSA will grope less children"

[Zero Phoenix]

Good afternoon class. Today we introduce Trolling With a Purpose.

1. The best policy is to understand the reason behind why America is being attacked, very little people talk about this fundamental question - people don't attack you for no reason.

Are you kidding? You're kidding right? This is why I like you Kaze Araki, this back and forth between us, this predictable unpredictability. Now normally, you would argue that America goes in, rapes countries, pillages, and we do all this for no good reason. BUT, if someone is attacking America, oh there has to be a reason. America is never justified for going overseas and blowing some shit up, but when someone flies planes into our buildings and kills thousands, oh there has just got to be some justification. You didn't really think I'd just ignore that did you?

3. The killing of bin Laden are both illegal and unjust, Obama is flat out lying to the public when he said "justice has been served".

Explain that to me? I'm not sure what "your" concept of justice is, but justice is simply penance for a crime. My apologies if 21st Century politics clouded your view of the basics but that's all justice is; penance. bin Laden masterminded an act of international terrorism that killed thousands. He in turn later dies. Is that not justice? Is that not karma?

International law only punishes the losers in war.

True.

But we've already dug ourselves into this hole. We've already killed a lot of people over there, and it gets to a point where we need to defend ourselves for the sins of our past leaders.

I don't agree with that. "Those who overcome adversity have the right to trample on the human race."
Sorry to go Hellsing in here but my point is simple. Politics is a dirty, violent, unsavory game. No country in the world became prosperous without stepping on another country, raping the land, cutting deals with dictators. Every country on earth benefitted from the death of villains and the massacre of millions of innocent people. Let's not all turn our eyes away from history and feign moral superiority when the shit gets real.

9/11, Invasion of the middle east, Occupation of the middle east, Side mission: Saddam, Unclear intent, 10 year long manhunt, Media exposure up the ass, and finally about 115 documentaries about how they killed Laden, but were unable to show his body, etc etc.

Quietly? Seriousy? Quietly?

Point taken.

I dont care about US politics and maybe Obama is a decent man, I dont know, I dont care, What I can tell you is that to me it seems that when he got into office his first damn sentence was: We gotta get some closure on this Osama business. Real or fake.

Thats what I would have done. Admit it... Its what all of you would have done.

PREACH!!

Its why I said 'relatively quietly'. Meaning they could have fucked up worse. Like invading Pakistan.

Spoiler Alert: If that hick from Texas gets in there we most certainly will go to war with Pakistan for no other reason than the fact that Texans like n!ggas, tend to f#ck things up for everyone.

Anyone have a problem with what I said? :smart:

 

[Kaze Araki]

Are you kidding? You're kidding right? This is why I like you Kaze Araki, this back and forth between us, this predictable unpredictability. Now normally, you would argue that America goes in, rapes countries, pillages, and we do all this for no good reason. BUT, if someone is attacking America, oh there has to be a reason. America is never justified for going overseas and blowing some shit up, but when someone flies planes into our buildings and kills thousands, oh there has just got to be some justification. You didn't really think I'd just ignore that did you?

Well, is not it very obvious? The reason why America blows some shit up (even to a country that has nothing to do with the issue) is because someone flies planes into American buildings - that is pretty much clear to everybody. What is not clear, is the question of why these people fly those planes in the first place. There has to be a reason to it, and that is the fundamental question that needs to be answered.

Explain that to me? I'm not sure what "your" concept of justice is, but justice is simply penance for a crime. My apologies if 21st Century politics clouded your view of the basics but that's all justice is; penance. bin Laden masterminded an act of international terrorism that killed thousands. He in turn later dies. Is that not justice? Is that not karma?

From legal perspective, justice can only be served in front of the court of law. Extrajudicial actions are not synonymous with legal justice.

 

[Btmangan]

Well, is not it very obvious? The reason why America blows some shit up (even to a country that has nothing to do with the issue) is because someone flies planes into American buildings - that is pretty much clear to everybody. What is not clear, is the question of why these people fly those planes in the first place. There has to be a reason to it, and that is the fundamental question that needs to be answered.

Sure, and if we find some American general or president or intelligence agency that is guilty of shenanigans, we should put them on trial for it.

It's annoying when American nationalists refuse to admit that the hijackers had reasoning as to why they hated us so much. Of course they had reasons. Maybe American people, or an American institution did some unlawful and unjust things over in their countries, to their people.

But even if we did find out that there is a culpable person or organization that we could punish (and we ought to, definitely), we still need to defend ourselves.

Let's just hope we don't make more martyrs and just start the cycle all over again. It's in situations like these that politics really start getting messy. The middle east is a powderkeg of anti-western sentiment, and America is increasingly becoming a powderkeg of anti middle-eastern sentiment. They burn flags. We burn Korans.

This could evolve into a full-on culture war.

 

[Zero Phoenix]

What is not clear, is the question of why these people fly those planes in the first place. There has to be a reason to it, and that is the fundamental question that needs to be answered.

Cause they're crazy people. :shiftyeyes:I mean let's cut the crap Kaze Araki. Screw political correctness, lets get real.
We're talking about a group of people who think that if they blow themselves up, kill innocent people, shame their own women, they'll go to a land of 47 virgins. (Are there even that many in the world?) We're talking about a group of people who think that God will recognize their women just because they're wearing curtains. We're talking about a culture that has been influenced by all manner of devilry. There is no logic behind anything they do when it comes to politics. None. These people don't need excuses they need Jesus.

 

[Kaze Araki]

Cause they're crazy people. :shiftyeyes:I mean let's cut the crap Kaze Araki. Screw political correctness, lets get real.
We're talking about a group of people who think that if they blow themselves up, kill innocent people, shame their own women, they'll go to a land of 47 virgins. We're talking about a group of people who think that God will recognize their women just because they're wearing curtains. We're talking about a culture that has been influenced by all manner of devilry. There is no logic behind anything they do when it comes to politics. None. These people don't need excuses they need Jesus.

I am afraid you're very wrong here. Suicide bombing is a very recent trend in Islamic insurgencies and terrorism, and remain very controversial even until today. This is due to the fact that Islam strictly prohibit suicide, and coupled with the masculine tradition of the middle east. Truth to be told, suicide bombing is a symptom of helplessness, as the technologically backward Arab World cannot fight back against the modern forces of western occupiers.

Muslims in general, just like Christians and Jews, does not follow their religions to the extreme. What you claim are a combination of cultures and Islamic extremism. I come from a Muslim culture that is very moderate, and none of what you said even applied here - apart from very small amount of political organizations that has very little support from the populace due to their extremism. This small amount of people, like Jewish and Christians zealots, just as you said, are inherently irrational and cannot be talked with common sense. Most Muslims only sympathize with them due to their defiant against the West, and not so much for their ideologies. To give you a good example of what I am talking about here, take one of the plane hijacker as sample; Ziad Jarrah. Read his biography, and you will notice that he is not a fundamentalist by any stretch of imagination, but it is the suffering of his people and their helplessness that forced him to do the atrocious act.

Even so, this still does not answer the question, why those hijackers fly those planes? Can you give me the real answer?

 

[Btmangan]

"If the terrorists attacked us because of our freedom, Belgium would be dust"

 

[Zero Phoenix]

Even so, this still does not answer the question, why those hijackers fly those planes? Can you give me the real answer?

This is unseemly Kaze-dono. :smart:To ask me, such a question. I didn't answer because there is no answer. That was sort of the point of my diatribe. Crazy people do crazy things. Who in their right mind would fly a plane into a building? :huuh: No one. If someone were to be in their right mind, hypotetically speaking, and they still came to a decision to fly a plane into a building why would they do it? Absurd. There is no logic to be found in such a scenario. It's simply madness.

IF, you were to give me evidence that the WTC carried a new type of bomb (Freya) and the U.S. was planning to use it to rain hell on the Middle East, and the 9/11 hijackers were actually freedom fighters trying to save countless millions then that would be a different story. But apart from a tremendous asspull on my part I really doubt that's the case.

 

[Kaze Araki]

They fly those planes to relay a political point, albeit through mean of terrorism.

As for the hijackers motivation, it's pretty much straight forward (but almost unknown in the U.S.):

[YOUTUBE]J1bm2GPoFfg[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Zero Phoenix]

They fly those planes to relay a political point, albeit through mean of terrorism.

As for the hijackers motivation, it's pretty much straight forward (but almost unknown in the U.S.):

[YOUTUBE]J1bm2GPoFfg[/YOUTUBE]

Are you making anti-American snub films again Kaze-dono? :smart:I kid I kid. But would it not have been more effective to protest, or I don't know, fight the enemies IN THEIR ACTUAL COUNTRY? Seems to me that the only thing they've done is America justification for backing Israel. I mean really, I've seen Jews catch buses but I've never seen them blow one up. If anything, we can interpret the 9/11 attacks as proof that America has been supporting the group it should have been supporting the entire time, i.e., Israel.

 

[Kaze Araki]

Al Qaeda is a supranational organization, they know no countries borders.

 

[Btmangan]

Are you making anti-American snub films again Kaze-dono? :smart:I kid I kid. But would it not have been more effective to protest, or I don't know, fight the enemies IN THEIR ACTUAL COUNTRY? Seems to me that the only thing they've done is America justification for backing Israel. I mean really, I've seen Jews catch buses but I've never seen them blow one up. If anything, we can interpret the 9/11 attacks as proof that America has been supporting the group it should have been supporting the entire time, i.e., Israel.

What a one-sided assessment of the Israeli/Palestinian situation. . .

Condense an entire issue involving annexation of territory in violation of UN edicts and the aggressive colonization of Palestinian territories, in-discriminant helicopter strikes and illegal use of white phosphorus in civilian centers, the Israeli utilization of the Christian Lebanese as a proxy for ethnic cleansing, etc etc into

"Terrorists attack Israel! They are bad!"

You need to understand that the media can be quite biased on issues such as this one. When you see a slanted perspective, don't accept the slant implicitly.

There are two sides to every story, even this one. Have you ever made even the slightest attempt to look at the situation from the Palestinian perspective, or even objectively?

 

[Zero Phoenix]

Al Qaeda is a supranational organization, they know no countries borders.

If that were the case, it seems to me they would have a means of handling their problems without resorting to terrorism. An organization THAT extensive needs to have more than guns and bombs to make things happen. If they have social power they have political power, which they could have used to handle this situation in a much, much, better way. Al Qaeda is just as guilty of shedding the blood of Muslims, Islamics, whatever the hell people in the group are calling themselves, as Israel and America. Count in!

@Dienekes : 1) I wasn't addressing you. 2) In case you haven't the liberty of an education that affords reading comprehension, my post did in no way, address your own. 3) Kaze-dono and I go way back. He knows when I'm being intentionally one-sided and when I'm not. He's also fully aware of when I'm playing devil's advocate and arguing a pov that I don't actually support. As such, I am intentionally taking an extremist standpoint in this discussion. 4) Given that this matter is between Kaze-dono and myself do not speak unless spoken to.

 

[Kaze Araki]

[MENTION=170]Zero Phoenix[/MENTION]
I never said Al Qaeda is innocent, nor I condone their actions.
And the problem with your claim is that, Al Qaeda does not have dominant social power or political power - that's why no Al Qaeda states exist.
Furthermore, your view against the Palestinian is also very bias - refer to [MENTION=3035]Dienekes[/MENTION] post for some fact checking.
Or you can read them through the scholarly works of Norman Finkelstein, Noam Chomsky, Avi Shlaim, Ilan Pappe and even the far right Benny Morris.

 

[Btmangan]

do not speak unless spoken to.

A suggestion, if I would. If you want a private conversation, use PM.

I will respect your wishes to talk only with him, but there are far more mature ways to ask.

 

[Kaze Araki]

[MENTION=170]Zero Phoenix[/MENTION]
Lol, I didn't know you're just playing devil's advocate - I thought you're being serious here, lol.

 

[Zero Phoenix]

I never said Al Qaeda is innocent, nor I condone their actions.

My dearest rival. I never said you did. :smart:

And the problem with your claim is that, Al Qaeda does not have dominant social power or political power - that's why no Al Qaeda states exist.

Wouldn't it be more effective to acquire these things than blow up buildings? Btw, any group that can turn (allegedly) civil minded people into terrorists has social AND political power. Are they using that power to better the world so that tyrants like the United States of America can be justly held accountable for their crimes, or are they using that power to create chaos and anarchy?

Furthermore, your view against the Palestinian is also very bias

Of course. However I'm a good-intentioned extremist. I'm sure you've seen me exhibit this behavior before in this very same discussion. I know full well my hand has come down rather heavily on Palestine but I've done as much for two reasons. 1) I want to see how you defend Muslims, Islams, Palestinians, again, however the hell people identify themselves nowadays when it comes to acts of terrorism. 2) You've known me for three years and I've always been pro-Israel. That's never going to change. I'm a bit more aggressive toward you because my aim lay in number one which was mentioned above.

NEXT!

A suggestion, if I would. If you want a private conversation, use PM.

I don't have to PM him. You saw that it was Kaze Araki that I quoted, i.e., not you, ergo you didn't have to run your damn mouth.

I will respect your wishes to talk only with him, but there are far more mature ways to ask.

I had to edit this post about three times but you know what, I'm going to let you have this one. You're a Claymore fan so I'll be lenient.

Lol, I didn't know you're just playing devil's advocate - I thought you're being serious here, lol.

More or less. I do this because when people get worked up they make mistakes in the same way you're doing. I meant no offense toward you but you know how I do things. Of course now that you are aware of this, my post loses some of its edge which was needed to undermine your argument. Still, I'd like for you to answer the questions I put forth.

 

[Kaze Araki]

Wouldn't it be more effective to acquire these things than blow up buildings? Btw, any group that can turn (allegedly) civil minded people into terrorists has social AND political power. Are they using that power to better the world so that tyrants like the United States of America can be justly held accountable for their crimes, or are they using that power to create chaos and anarchy?

I don't draft their manifesto, I can't tell them what they can't, can or should do. But this one sided burden given to them also very perplexing to me. Are you saying that the U.S. can commit terrorism but they can't (if we use their logic)?

Of course. However I'm a good-intentioned extremist. I'm sure you've seen me exhibit this behavior before in this very same discussion. I know full well my hand has come down rather heavily on Palestine but I've done as much for two reasons. 1) I want to see how you defend Muslims, Islams, Palestinians, again, however the hell people identify themselves nowadays when it comes to acts of terrorism. 2) You've known me for three years and I've always been pro-Israel. That's never going to change. I'm a bit more aggressive toward you because my aim lay in number one which was mentioned above.

1. I never defend their terrorist acts.
2. In regard to Israel, the impartial position would be to follow International Law.

 

[Zero Phoenix]

Life-Long Friends

My man. I'm going to miss you when I'm gone.

I don't draft their manifesto, I can't tell them what they can't, can or should do.

Let me rephrase this. You allege that the 9/11 hijackers who were organized by Al Qaeda had a good reason for attacking America. I asked you what that reason was, you drew attention to America's support of Palestines enemies. Noted. However, I asserted (in many layers of politically insensitive jibes ) that the better thing to do would be to bring about social and political change which are far more effective than blowing up buildings. It is my position that Al Qaeda is filled with madmen who only do what they do because they hate others. They have no reason for their actions, they merely hate. If I was actually wrong then Al Qaeda would be using their powers to do more than make human bombs. If they really did have a cause, if they really did have reason, they would organize political parties, social groups, shit a Facebook page and a Twitter page. If Al Qaeda was more than a group of madmen (and they aren't anything more than that) then they wouldn't be terrorists, they would be a Revolutionary Army! My aim, Kaze-dono was to get you to look at the situation from that particular argument. I'm fully aware that you don't draft their manifesto, I'm fully aware that you cannot tell me what they cannot and cannot do. I am asking you, based on your political and civil sense, to examine Al Qaeda's actions.

Yeah, I know, straight-up ballin! :coool:

But this one sided burden given to them also very perplexing to me. Are you saying that the U.S. can commit terrorism but they can't (if we use their logic)?

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt in trying to help YOUR argument. I alleged, hypothetically, that yes let's suppose the U.S. is the villain in this grand scheme. Could Al Qaeda use other methods besides blowing up buildings and shit to ensure that justice is done? If Al Qaeda had reasons for 9/11 we have to assume that they were good reasons, good enough to commit an atrocity like that. Of course the issue is, there reasons weren't good ones. They didn't have any reason to do what they did. It was terrorism.

1. I never defend their terrorist acts.

You argued they had a reason to commit their terrorist acts. I argued they didn't. I'm asking you for contrast.

2. In regard to Israel, the impartial position would be to follow International Law.

Man's law? As if. :smart:

 

[Kaze Araki]

I'm not sure I understand your argument.
Are you saying that Al Qaeda don't have reason because they use terrorism?

As for your comment about man's law.
I suppose it is more appropriate for you to follow an alleged God's law that said Palestine belongs to Israel and therefore ridding off of Palestine from its overwhelming indigenous Palestinian's population.
Well if so, let me ask you this question:
What would you do if someone knock on your door and said your house belongs to him because his religion said so?
Would you give your house to him and let yourself homeless?

 

[Zero Phoenix]

I'm not sure I understand your argument.
Are you saying that Al Qaeda don't have reason because they use terrorism?

Let's try this from a different approach. True, sometimes "terrorism" works. Look at the Founding Fathers. But there is a reason why the Founding Father's approach to terrorism is more or less acceptable and Al Qaeda's is not. The Founding Fathers acquired the support of the people, worked towards creating and independent political system, examined the needs of the people and made the fulfillment of those needs their driving point etcetera. Al Qaeda blows up any building, shoot any person, tears up anything western. They just blow shit up. If Al Qaeda had a track-record, a history, of initiatives, achievements, movements, and the like that they endeavored in the name of the people and 9/11 was simply an act they had to resort to in order to continue an upward trend of contributing to their communities then that would be different. But all they do is just destroy, destroy, destroy. They're organized yes, but mentally they're lower than animals because nothing they do has purpose. It is not the simple act of terrorism, it is the fact that as far as Al Qaeda is concerned, the only act that can ever be taken in any situation is terrorism. As such, they are not aiming to stab at Palestines enemies, they are not trying to unseat America for good reasons, they're just a group of people who aim to destroy.

As for your comment about man's law.
I suppose it is more appropriate for you to follow an alleged God's law that said Palestine belongs to Israel and therefore ridding off of Palestine from its overwhelming indigenous Palestinian's population.

Of course. :hohoho: We've been over this. If God said pursue the Palestinians with the sword until not one remains, well, when you have to go you have to go. Of course He didn't say "that" but it's very clear that the land belongs to Israel.

Well if so, let me ask you this question:
What would you do if someone knock on your door and said your house belongs to him because his religion said so?
Would you give your house to him and let yourself homeless?

We've been over this too. If his book is the Bible then I'd read it for myself and if MY interpretation checks out I'll pack my things and roll. If he's holding the Tao Te Ching or the Koran or something I'll tell him to get the hell off my property before I call the cops.