Child Pageants

[Denuo Prince]

We live in a society that abhors violence and brute strength. Such a society does not raise girls with the idea that guys need to be strong. They need to be successful, sure, but success does not depend on raw strength.

The environment raises them that way. You act like much has changed over the years. Kids still play with kids and some kid still are more popular and in the groups eyes "worth" more then others. And its still judged by both beaty and strength. The adults don't have much to say since they cant be with the kid 24/7.

This is what childhood is like. or at-least any childhood with social interactions.

Before you can talk them into sleeping with you, you first need to get their attention. You first need to run the gauntlet of being deemed worthy enough of a girls attention. Looks play a role, social status plays a role and your ability to get noticed plays a role. And usually, getting noticed means saying the right things at the right time. Not beating up someone in front of a girl.

Being the alpha male/jock type means they will in most cases come to you. And you with have to say much less then you would if you weren't in that social position. All you have to do is have any social kills at all and you have a better chance of getting her then others.

 

[Btmangan]

Well I'll concede to Lex in part.

A certain kind of girl tends to have sex with varsity football or lacrosse players.

Some girls want to bang chorus guys who wear polo's and who's father is a CEO of something.

Some girls want to date guys who wear glasses and know a lot about engineering or bio or something.

Some girls want to date stoners, free thinkers, punks, rockers, "bad-boys" etc.

And generally, the guy within all these groups who ends up getting laid is the one with the best social graces and best physical attractiveness.

 

[Denuo Prince]

Well I'll concede to Lex in part.

A certain kind of girl tends to have sex with varsity football or lacrosse players.

Some girls want to bang chorus guys who wear polo's and who's father is a CEO of something.

Some girls want to date guys who wear glasses and know a lot about engineering or bio or something.

Some girls want to date stoners, free thinkers, punks, rockers, "bad-boys" etc.

And generally, the guy within all these groups who ends up getting laid is the one with the best social graces and best physical attractiveness.

Young girls aren't really complex. Social status matter to them.

 

[Btmangan]

Young girls aren't really complex. Social status matter to them.

Indeed. Depending on the sharpness/dullness of the girl that can fluctuate as well.

But I just tend to notice that people tend to "hook up" within groups.

The football girls are generally just the loosest from what I remember.

 

[Denuo Prince]

Indeed. Depending on the sharpness/dullness of the girl that can fluctuate as well.

But I just tend to notice that people tend to "hook up" within groups.

The football girls are generally just the loosest from what I remember.

True , they do tend to do the group thing. I hated high school though. When you grow up your realize allot of the shit that seemed important , really means nothing. And the girl that you couldn't live with out you realize their just 1 fish in an endless ocean.

 

[Btmangan]

True , they do tend to do the group thing. I hated high school though. When you grow up your realize allot of the shit that seemed important , really means nothing. And the girl that you couldn't live with out you realize their just 1 fish in an endless ocean.

They say hindsight is 20/20, but I never bought into to any of that high school social-hierarchy bull.

What was quite interesting, though, was when I was a freshman in College. I looked around at my neighbors and how desperately they all started to plan social events and I realized "Their whole social hierarchy has been smashed now that they're in a new place. Look at how desperate they are to bring the order of social stratification back into their lives."

I was king for a few days when socialization had not yet been established, because I'm confident and laid back.

But slowly and surely, the social ranks returned and since I never hung out with my floor, I'm not sure where they ranked me, but their demeanor towards me soured.

Didn't care though :hohoho: Found some awesome friends who didn't care about that crap.

 

[-lexus-]

Young girls aren't really complex. Social status matter to them.

Yes, but social status is not derived from physical strength but from success. Success matters, nothing else. And success can mean lots of things: wealth, clothes, looks, athletic, your ability to socialize (extravertness), cellphones, etc. Thats what they fall for, and your ability to punch someone in the face really hard is not one of the ways they get success.

The environment raises them that way. You act like much has changed over the years. Kids still play with kids and some kid still are more popular and in the groups eyes "worth" more then others. And its still judged by both beaty and strength. The adults don't have much to say since they cant be with the kid 24/7.

This is what childhood is like. or at-least any childhood with social interactions.

Parents still have quite a bit to say over how they raise their kids. Tigermoms, beauty paegant moms, you really think those kids get mostly raised by their environment, by interacting with other kids? Im pretty sure their parents are heavily involved in their lives. Furthermore, environment comprises of so much more then your school environment. Again, we live in a society that does not place much value on violence, and therefor strength. It places its emphasis on success, to excel, to be better then those around but not by beating them to a pulp.

Do tell, how many people idolize raw strength? Who thinks bodybuilders are sexy? And how many of those are young children. How many young children do you see working out in the gym going for muscle mass?

Being the alpha male/jock type means they will in most cases come to you. And you with have to say much less then you would if you weren't in that social position. All you have to do is have any social kills at all and you have a better chance of getting her then others.

That is because they are seen as the most successful. An Alpha male is seen by his surroundings as the guy who had the most success. That is why he is Alpha Male and why he gets all the girls. His strength is in most cases irrelevant.

 

[Core]

Whoops sorry for my late entry but this thing derailed a bit.

Having been both Stateside and Europe for more then a few years I can tell you:

Social status in the US is a major thing. Especially because most if not all people there are brought up in such a repressed fashion. Mostly if not only because of the following:

If I say in america to a group of people(guys and girls): I like to drink.

Their brain analyzes this as: Oh we should go drinking or I dont want want to go drinking right now.
Even though the original statement only speaks about my personal likes.

If I say it in europe: The general response will be US TOO... followed by an order or question whether or not that should be something we should do sometime.

Its a thought process barrier. In the US everything is said with veiled references hinting ahead never being completely clear about anything. Maybe its because they were never taught to be straight with someone or maybe its because everyone in their immediate area uses the same process.

In Europe the conversations are a whole lot straight. I am not saying theres less lying but theres less presumption because people are more definitive in their answers.

What does this have to do with the topic? Simple:

This way of thinking takes alot of effort, and in fact stunts emotional growth(not intellectual) meaning that if lexus were to goto the US now as he is 21 he would find out that the 18 year olds there(9 out of 10) have the emotional maturity of 12-14 year olds in europe.
This is also why the phrase: If you want to get laid goto college. Makes no sense in europe. Girls gone wild videos. Also make absolutely no sense here. Because by the time they are 18 most of their partying has been done(14-18).

To re-iterate. In europe social status counts for almost nothing. Being the best athlete in school is about as useful for your sex appeal as being the most popular kid with down syndrome. But in the US that still counts for alot.

Both sides have made decent arguments here just bear in mind the age barrier/thought process barrier.

If you want to compare a european 18 year old whos had like 5 relationships and lost here virginity in the first or second one(average) who alrready knows exactly what she wants, what turns her on and what she doesnt want.
To an 18 year old american virgin who hasnt the faintest idea what she really wants in a partner.

You are comparing 2 entirely different cultures(Now I am not saying this is how it is. I am saying this is the average)

usually europeans know what they want at 17 and americans at 22-23

 

[Btmangan]

Whoops sorry for my late entry but this thing derailed a bit.

Having been both Stateside and Europe for more then a few years I can tell you:

Social status in the US is a major thing. Especially because most if not all people there are brought up in such a repressed fashion. Mostly if not only because of the following:

If I say in america to a group of people(guys and girls): I like to drink.

Their brain analyzes this as: Oh we should go drinking or I dont want want to go drinking right now.
Even though the original statement only speaks about my personal likes.

If I say it in europe: The general response will be US TOO... followed by an order or question whether or not that should be something we should do sometime.

Its a thought process barrier. In the US everything is said with veiled references hinting ahead never being completely clear about anything. Maybe its because they were never taught to be straight with someone or maybe its because everyone in their immediate area uses the same process.

In Europe the conversations are a whole lot straight. I am not saying theres less lying but theres less presumption because people are more definitive in their answers.

What does this have to do with the topic? Simple:

This way of thinking takes alot of effort, and in fact stunts emotional growth(not intellectual) meaning that if lexus were to goto the US now as he is 21 he would find out that the 18 year olds there(9 out of 10) have the emotional maturity of 12-14 year olds in europe.
This is also why the phrase: If you want to get laid goto college. Makes no sense in europe. Girls gone wild videos. Also make absolutely no sense here. Because by the time they are 18 most of their partying has been done(14-18).

To re-iterate. In europe social status counts for almost nothing. Being the best athlete in school is about as useful for your sex appeal as being the most popular kid with down syndrome. But in the US that still counts for alot.

Both sides have made decent arguments here just bear in mind the age barrier/thought process barrier.

If you want to compare a european 18 year old whos had like 5 relationships and lost here virginity in the first or second one(average) who alrready knows exactly what she wants, what turns her on and what she doesnt want.
To an 18 year old american virgin who hasnt the faintest idea what she really wants in a partner.

You are comparing 2 entirely different cultures(Now I am not saying this is how it is. I am saying this is the average)

usually europeans know what they want at 17 and americans at 22-23

Very interesting analysis. . . I had suspicions that cultural barriers were at play in this debate.

Though I do hope that I am an outlier in not being maturity-retarded. :sigh:

*Eats food off of bare chest*

 

[Core]

Remember this only truly applies to emotional maturity and emotional experience.
Not intellectual.

Which is also why there arent that many "emo's" in europe.. its kind of like every child in the US is raised with a veil over their head and assumes every sentence implies something else.

I am not saying that is bad... iI am just saying that is the standard.

Also a huge difference: In europe only 30-40% of the people care about how they are perceived. In the US 70-80%(at age 18)

And it isnt something you notice in a random conversation with someone... it is something that only comes to bare its teeth when things do get emotionally entangled and stuff

If you are just very platonic friends with someone you might never notice how inexperienced they are in their emotions.
You only really start to notice when you date one.. and notice how fickle things can just change how someone feels(radically).

 

[Btmangan]

Remember this only truly applies to emotional maturity and emotional experience.
Not intellectual.

Which is also why there arent that many "emo's" in europe.. its kind of like every child in the US is raised with a veil over their head and assumes every sentence implies something else.

I am not saying that is bad... iI am just saying that is the standard.

Also a huge difference: In europe only 30-40% of the people care about how they are perceived. In the US 70-80%(at age 18)

And it isnt something you notice in a random conversation with someone... it is something that only comes to bare its teeth when things do get emotionally entangled and stuff

If you are just very platonic friends with someone you might never notice how inexperienced they are in their emotions.

Don't worry, I'm no nationalist. Mainstream American cultural and societal norms leave a sour taste in my mouth.

Those numbers are interesting but not very surprising (provided they're accurate).

You only really start to notice when you date one.. and notice how fickle things can just change how someone feels(radically).

Personal experience I presume?

I've found that personal experience from ex's generally does't make for solid scientific inquiry. The actions of 1 crazy ex can be overgeneralized to "all women" or "all American women" in this case.

 

[Core]

Don't worry, I'm no nationalist. Mainstream American cultural and societal norms leave a sour taste in my mouth.

Those numbers are interesting but not very surprising (provided they're accurate).



Personal experience I presume?

I've found that personal experience from ex's generally does't make for solid scientific inquiry. The actions of 1 crazy ex can be overgeneralized to "all women" or "all American women" in this case.

I dont have the numbers of 2010 2011, but I did study up on it before since when I was attending at MIT I noticed the whole schwagger myself. They werent meant to be surprising.

Like i said before... alot of american conversation has ALOT of: IMPLIED SUBTEXT. That shit just does not fly in europe


I do not draw any of my things from personal experience. I was merely pointing out how it would be easy to deduce such a major cultural difference.

Russian friend of mine, well travelled in europe is since september attending brown university. First 2 weeks he had no problem with anyone, then he tried to get a girl and he hit a major wall and this subject was re-visited after I explained it to him, all his roommates were like... Yea that shit is normal round here.(Russian well traveled = rich + cultured +many many russian supermodels on speeddial... trust me <3)

And I explained them how much of an insult what she just said is supposed to be(in europe)(they all quickly realized and agreed with wtf I was talking about )

 

[-lexus-]

Remember this only truly applies to emotional maturity and emotional experience.
Not intellectual.

Which is also why there arent that many "emo's" in europe.. its kind of like every child in the US is raised with a veil over their head and assumes every sentence implies something else.

I am not saying that is bad... iI am just saying that is the standard.

Also a huge difference: In europe only 30-40% of the people care about how they are perceived. In the US 70-80%(at age 18)

And it isnt something you notice in a random conversation with someone... it is something that only comes to bare its teeth when things do get emotionally entangled and stuff

If you are just very platonic friends with someone you might never notice how inexperienced they are in their emotions.
You only really start to notice when you date one.. and notice how fickle things can just change how someone feels(radically).

No offense dude, but that is not my experience.

Like we dont party anymore after highschool because we did all the partying then and like Americans dont party until they are in college. Never seen fraternities or sororities? And like every European got laid before they turned 18 and Americans are all a bunch of brave people who wait until they are married. America got like the worst teen pregnancy rate in the west.

And 30-40% of the Europeans care about how they are perceived? WHAT?! Alright, since you start giving numbers, Id like to see the source of them. Europeans care about as much as everyone else about how they are perceived. Teens especially.

And I dont really think that European teenagers are any more emotionally mature then Americans. That would imply that European brains mature quicker then American brains.

Sure, there are plenty of cultural differences between Europeans and Americans, but the picture you are painting here is just flat out ridiculous.

 

[amandaluvsya]

I don't know.. _@: I've seen the commercials on TV and it seems like the kids, deep down are really not that happy and to the extent that these mothers go. I saw one commercial where a mother was having her 8 year old get botox injections :wtf: she's 8 years old how many wrinkles can she possibly have? I think that's going just a bit too far for my taste. Also the outfit that they make these girls wear sometimes are a bit... slutty.

It's wrong in my opinion, I just have this huge feeling that these girls are going to grow up to be prostitutes or strippers so that they can feel "pretty" again :/

 

[Sanae]

Utterly disturbing and wrong or not?
Discuss.

At first, you would think there's no harm in putting your child in a small/fun competition, but then it seems to get out of hand..

I heard one mom would shoot her 8yr. old daughter up with botox, because she had those slight wrinkles on your forehead when you smile.. the smile one :huuh:

I can't remember what exactly the interviewer asked the little girl.. something like,"Did you want the botox or your mom?" The little girl goes,"I wanted it."

Interviewer: "Why?"

Little Girl: "I don't know." and then the "I don't know." turned into,"Because I don't like wrinkles."..

I think, the child should at least have a say in it if they want to do the whole pageant thing.. The parents may not think of it, but it probably takes a lot out of the child. It may even disrrupt their lives.. Especially, if they don't want to disappoint their parents (it seems to be mostly moms lolol)...

EDIT: Lol, didn't read all the post (I just replied to the OP), but sounds like we heard about the same thing, Amanda O_O

 

[amandaluvsya]

[MENTION=8]Sanae[/MENTION]: lolz yah we did


I don't know I just think kids shouldn't do that stuff
it takes away there childhood, the kids don't have to be...well kids.

 

[KuroNightStar]

Child pageants are very much not necessary; I don't feel their brains develop properly when subjected to the means of being *adults* while still being *children*. I hate to say it, but these are the girls the pedophiles prey on and things happen to. Why? Because they're being exposed to the media and they can't do a thing about it. Are the parents watching them 24-7? Ha! You mine as well tell me they have super powers. But I digress a little-let's look at a few of the pageants that air here where I live in America and they may even air in other places around the world. And let's keep in mind-pageants use many different means of finding their particular *miss* including swimsuit competitions, evening wear, panel questions, etc. Children pageants do something similar, so also keep this in mind.

Miss America? Meant for the adult woman, and been around since 1921. A pageant used to find the most beautiful woman across America and Puerto Rico.

So is Miss Universe, which began in 1952, used to find the most beautiful woman across the world.

Miss USA? NOT the same as Miss America. Miss USA, founded about the same time as Miss Universe, is used to find the USA representative for the aforementioned.

Miss Teen USA? Been around since 1983 and is its own even for teen girls aged 14-19. This show hasn't aired since 2007, but is still running apparently. Okay-I can see that-most of those teens have been through puberty and understand more about their bodies. They're not all ready for life ahead, but it's a step in the right direction for them as growing women..

Toddlers and Tiaras? GIVE ME A BREAK! I feel that show was just made because someone was losing money and needed a quick idea. I can say a lot of people I personally know dislike seeing such young girls going through aggressive mannerisms from everyone around them including their own mothers, who are supposed to be their MAIN source of support. Do they really believe their child is going to be a "star" all throughout their life? The answer is "highly unlikely".

These kids are exposed to a lifestyle that most kids shouldn't be exposed to. Perhaps back MANY years ago, this would have been a suitable, plausible idea. But in the lifetime of 2011 and the future ahead, society is on a downhill spiral WORLDWIDE, and these children, to me, feel like mindless victims being controlled by money hungry, superficial people.

If I ever have a daughter, I'll be sure to have her raised what I believe the *right* way is-with both of her loving parents and the correct wisdom to pass along so she may be a better woman for herself.

 

[Core]

No offense dude, but that is not my experience.

Like we dont party anymore after highschool because we did all the partying then and like Americans dont party until they are in college. Never seen fraternities or sororities? And like every European got laid before they turned 18 and Americans are all a bunch of brave people who wait until they are married. America got like the worst teen pregnancy rate in the west.

And 30-40% of the Europeans care about how they are perceived? WHAT?! Alright, since you start giving numbers, Id like to see the source of them. Europeans care about as much as everyone else about how they are perceived. Teens especially.

And I dont really think that European teenagers are any more emotionally mature then Americans. That would imply that European brains mature quicker then American brains.

Sure, there are plenty of cultural differences between Europeans and Americans, but the picture you are painting here is just flat out ridiculous.

This is why we keep bumping heads. You constantly take what I say out of context.

I know to you it doesnt read that way but that only proves my point about the cultural difference. I will re-iterate my re-iteration.

If you compare an American 18 year old to a european 18 year old.

Any questions?

because if you compare a european 14-15 year old to an american 18 year old.. very small difference.


And in reality the difference between both worlds is so small they have to be exaggerated. The problem only comes into play when you observe your culture and go an international forum and speak every single word you preach from your own observations close to home.

Which is why I black and white drew the line in the sand.

Anymore questions?

Final note.. I keep saying EMOTIONAL MATURITY AND EXPERIENCE... Which is on a completely different level as intellectual or the rate at which your brain matures.

But since this is now the second time someone mistook what i said about EMOTIONAL MATURITY. What i am trying to say is:

Most europeans by the time they are 18 regardless of being penetrated have had about 4-5 semi serious relaitonships.
In europe this is considered normal.
In the US this is considered a slut. Which means the national average for a woiman who is 18 in the US has had maybe 1 relationship that was more a friendship then an actual relationship that would never amount to anything(also the reason for a high divorce rate) But the biggest thing is that most americans settle on their first or second relationship. In europe that happens once in a million.

You are correct teens still care about what people think about them and how they are perceived in Europe. But teens here are 12-15. 16 Is considered young adult and 18 is considered adult.
In the US 18 is considered young adult and 21 is considered adult.

Anymore questions or remarks from you lex?

 

[-lexus-]

Final note.. I keep saying EMOTIONAL MATURITY AND EXPERIENCE... Which is on a completely different level as intellectual or the rate at which your brain matures.

Good, so did I. In either case, it depends on the maturity of your brain and in either case it would mean that the average brain growth in America is slower then in Europe and I dont buy that without seeing some proof first.

Most europeans by the time they are 18 regardless of being penetrated have had about 4-5 semi serious relaitonships.
In europe this is considered normal.
In the US this is considered a slut. Which means the national average for a woiman who is 18 in the US has had maybe 1 relationship that was more a friendship then an actual relationship that would never amount to anything(also the reason for a high divorce rate) But the biggest thing is that most americans settle on their first or second relationship. In europe that happens once in a million.

Alright Americans, whats the average number of girlfriends or boyfriends an American teen has before he turns 18?

Also, 4-5 girlfriends? Maybe the popular guys. I doubt that is average. But, since you start quoting numbers, give me sources.

You are correct teens still care about what people think about them and how they are perceived in Europe. But teens here are 12-15. 16 Is considered young adult and 18 is considered adult.
In the US 18 is considered young adult and 21 is considered adult.

Well, in my environment people still care about their looks and how they are perceived. Maybe a little bit less then when they were younger, but its not like they just stopped giving a shit.

And no one considers 16 year olds to be young adults. Nor do they think 18 year olds are adults (except the law). Its closer to 18 being a young adult and 20-21 being an actual adult. But everyone knows that 16-17 years olds are still as mature as 15 year olds.

 

[kazuki20]

child pageants in my view are stupid because of what parents do to their kids, making them dress and do this crap when they are suppose to enjoy life and have fun, but you have parents fuck it up by forcing em to dress, hurting them and making them seem "Perfect". just disgust me, i wish i could ban those little child pageants