What Society demands.

#2
Judging by your username, my guess is that you cast your vote for “deception”, no? Erm...either way, I am for neither extremes in-and-of-themselves. Both require that either society needs one more than the other, and neither are necessarily true. However, if I were allowed to seek an answer in an ideal world, I would say “honesty”, and here's why.
Honesty is by its very nature what most leftist strive for in terms of conduct of a ruling body. They expect a ruling body (If they believe one should exist, not all leftists do) to be utterly honest to the people, for the people keep the nation alive. Moreover, the people have a right to honesty. Amongst normal people however, things get a little more complicated. Afterall, cant and deception have evolved for a reason. In modern society however, the question of whether or not that reason still holds weight is a difficult one. Personally, I feel it doesn't, and in an ideal society, even the people would have no need for dishonesty. For dishonesty—by its nature—is merely a means to something. Be it attention, praise, material gain, sex, or what have you. In a society where humans simply don't have these desires, dishonesty would have no point.
Even in real life though, I don't see much point for deception. Sure, it can get you out of a sticky situation or into a woman's pants, but in everyday occurrences, dishonesty is normally just taken out of impulse of needless desire. If you can get over such needless desires, deception would become more of a tool to be used when appropriate, rather than the epidemic it has become.
 

Core

Fascinating...
#3
Lol You cant have honesty without dishonesty or dishonesty without honesty.

But this conversation is absolutely pointless unless you put forth a damn theory or concept because just asking that question with obvious subtext: SOCIETY DEMANDS

I wont point out that honesty vs deception is a completely uneven battle.
 
#4
Judging by your username, my guess is that you cast your vote for “deception”, no? Erm...either way, I am for neither extremes in-and-of-themselves. Both require that either society needs one more than the other, and neither are necessarily true. However, if I were allowed to seek an answer in an ideal world, I would say “honesty”, and here's why.
Honesty is by its very nature what most leftist strive for in terms of conduct of a ruling body. They expect a ruling body (If they believe one should exist, not all leftists do) to be utterly honest to the people, for the people keep the nation alive. Moreover, the people have a right to honesty. Amongst normal people however, things get a little more complicated. Afterall, cant and deception have evolved for a reason. In modern society however, the question of whether or not that reason still holds weight is a difficult one. Personally, I feel it doesn't, and in an ideal society, even the people would have no need for dishonesty. For dishonesty—by its nature—is merely a means to something. Be it attention, praise, material gain, sex, or what have you. In a society where humans simply don't have these desires, dishonesty would have no point.
Even in real life though, I don't see much point for deception. Sure, it can get you out of a sticky situation or into a woman's pants, but in everyday occurrences, dishonesty is normally just taken out of impulse of needless desire. If you can get over such needless desires, deception would become more of a tool to be used when appropriate, rather than the epidemic it has become.
I never said anything about extremes nor did I ask about an ideal world. Just answer which one is more important tin your opinion. This is not a vs thread , I do not expect you to put honestly and deception individually against each other.
[MENTION=1264]shard2323[/MENTION]
[MENTION=22]Crom[/MENTION]
 

Hamuko

I feel free when the world doesn't owe it to me.
#5
I would have to a say a little bit of both for me. In a way deception and honesty come hand in hand. You deceive until you're comfortable enough to be honest
 
#6
I never said anything about extremes nor did I ask about an ideal world. Just answer which one is more important tin your opinion. This is not a vs thread , I do not expect you to put honestly and deception individually against each other.
@shard2323
@Crom

Dude, his name is CORE. Stop tagging me when you mean him, did it like 3 or 4 times so far.
 
#8
I would have to a say a little bit of both for me. In a way deception and honesty come hand in hand. You deceive until you're comfortable enough to be honest
So that means you think deception is more important or at-least more used in society since by commons sense their are vastly more people ins society your not comfortable with then those you are.And yous till have to communicate with them anyway.

@Hamuko
 

Core

Fascinating...
#9
Both your names and color are just to smilar.

@Core

My apology's again

Its fine.

But they are both equally important. Just in completely different contexts.


Not all deception is worse than honesty and not all honesty is better than deception

But next time please phrase it as: Honesty-dishonesty

Because Deception has its own polar opposite. Deception btw is about 20 times as broad a subject as dishonesty and therefore if it is the dishonesty part of deception you meant then its 50-50 but if you meant ALL DECEPTION then... deception is more important.

I asked you in the other thread aswell: Please post a theory.. a thought.. an opinion a formulation.. unless you are not interested in discussing the subject and merely want answers.

If you post an opinion, a view, a theory then others can comment on it and you can defend it. But if you just ask a question you keep all the cards to yourself and it becomes very hard to discuss the matter with you.(anyone else trying to answer the question is fine.. but you should in grand lines stay out of it)
 
#10
@ Prince: You asked which is more important to society; I answered. Sure, I ended up putting the two against each other, but only to show why. Nevertheless, I apologize if my reply wasn't up to par, it seems I'm getting rusty at answering broad questions these days x]. To hopefully appease you though, I think honesty is more important to society than dishonesty (Deception, that is).



[MENTION=1543]Core[/MENTION] : All in all, as you might gander from above, I was not anal retentive enough to really care about the differences between dishonesty and deception. Yes, in their broadest senses, they can mean very different things. My post however, clearly alluded to the fact that I was using the two as if they were synonymous. A mistake on my part, obviously, and one I apologize for, as I am sure you were quite annoyed by my post and its tendency to ignore obvious definitions.


....but the thread creator doesn't want this to be a debate thread?...-.- Oh...nevermind, ignore everything above >.>
 

Core

Fascinating...
#11
@ Prince: You asked which is more important to society; I answered. Sure, I ended up putting the two against each other, but only to show why. Nevertheless, I apologize if my reply wasn't up to par, it seems I'm getting rusty at answering broad questions these days x]. To hopefully appease you though, I think honesty is more important to society than dishonesty (Deception, that is).



@Core : All in all, as you might gander from above, I was not anal retentive enough to really care about the differences between dishonesty and deception. Yes, in their broadest senses, they can mean very different things. My post however, clearly alluded to the fact that I was using the two as if they were synonymous. A mistake on my part, obviously, and one I apologize for, as I am sure you were quite annoyed by my post and its tendency to ignore obvious definitions.


....but the thread creator doesn't want this to be a debate thread?...-.- Oh...nevermind, ignore everything above >.>
My post was in general i wasnt in the slightest annoyed at your post because it was almost 100% directed [MENTION=1268]The Prince[/MENTION]

So no real need to apologize to me.
 

Core

Fascinating...
#13
Deception because it spans into almost every subject whilst honesty is only used in social interaction. Theres your answer.. and that in reality is the only answer.

It might not be the answer you wanted but by definition they are on a completely different level.
 

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
#14
Deception because it spans into almost every subject whilst honesty is only used in social interaction. Theres your answer.. and that in reality is the only answer.

It might not be the answer you wanted but by definition they are on a completely different level.
Just out of curiosity, how do you figure that deception spans into almost every subject?
 

Core

Fascinating...
#15
deception [dɪˈsɛpʃən]n
1.
the act of deceiving or the state of being deceived

2. something that deceives; trick

and

perception [pəˈsɛpʃən]n
1. the act or the effect of perceiving

2. insight or intuition gained by perceiving
3. the ability or capacity to perceive
4. way of perceiving; awareness or consciousness; view advertising affects the customer's perception of a product
5. (Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Zoology) the process by which an organism detects and interprets information from the external world by means of the sensory receptors

Therefore deception is as broad as perception. Anyone can act deceitful even inanimate objects and machines. However test results can be deceptive and so can general observations since deception is almost completely tied into perception.

And without perception you and I could not be having this discussion now.
 
#16
Society naturally demands honesty. That's because, in this case, "what society demands" could be more accurately paraphrased as "what is ideal in society", and that is honesty. However, we don't live in an ideal world, which is why people have experimented with deception and found it much more rewarding. In fact, in this present world, you could say that society naturally demands deception because society itself is already deceptive, and thus the only way to keep afloat is to deceive as well.

Still, there's the adverse outcome where being a lone honest person in society is going to get you ridiculous amounts of goodwill from others, since they picture you as the "beacon of light" in a deceptive world. Then again, knowing the impacts of being honest in a deceptive society and thus doing so is a form of deception in itself, so yeah.
 

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
#17
deception [dɪˈsɛpʃən]n
1.
the act of deceiving or the state of being deceived

2. something that deceives; trick

and

perception [pəˈsɛpʃən]n
1. the act or the effect of perceiving

2. insight or intuition gained by perceiving
3. the ability or capacity to perceive
4. way of perceiving; awareness or consciousness; view advertising affects the customer's perception of a product
5. (Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Zoology) the process by which an organism detects and interprets information from the external world by means of the sensory receptors

Therefore deception is as broad as perception. Anyone can act deceitful even inanimate objects and machines. However test results can be deceptive and so can general observations since deception is almost completely tied into perception.

And without perception you and I could not be having this discussion now.
Ah, thank you for enlightening me ^^
 

Core

Fascinating...
#18
Society naturally demands honesty. That's because, in this case, "what society demands" could be more accurately paraphrased as "what is ideal in society", and that is honesty. However, we don't live in an ideal world, which is why people have experimented with deception and found it much more rewarding. In fact, in this present world, you could say that society naturally demands deception because society itself is already deceptive, and thus the only way to keep afloat is to deceive as well.

Still, there's the adverse outcome where being a lone honest person in society is going to get you ridiculous amounts of goodwill from others, since they picture you as the "beacon of light" in a deceptive world. Then again, knowing the impacts of being honest in a deceptive society and thus doing so is a form of deception in itself, so yeah.
[MENTION=55]Hadriel[/MENTION]


Thank you for your input :)

The biggest issue posed by the prince is that he compared deception to honesty.. I think he meant Honesty and Dishonesty.

You go on to say that dishonesty is more profitable... but might I argue a counterpoint?

When you are consoling someone do you concisely point out what they did wrong and how they could have handled their situation better? Do you constantly tell people what they are doing wrong?

Yes honesty and truth can be a beacon of light. Yes sometimes being dishonest is more profitable.
However I strongly believe that dishonesty to protect someones feelings is considered far more important in the modern society then absolute honesty.

I dont lie to spare the feelings of others however. Consequently people have stopped asking for my help when they are grief stricken.

(The problem with the term deception is that HOW YOU VIEW THINGS can be deception HOW YOU INTERPRET THINGS can be deception because you misinterpret in this case the deception is your own fault. But anyway :p)
 

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
#19
Well, doesnt that also depend on how you tell people how they made the mistake? You can say it in a rather rude, cold assholish way, or you can try to soften it up by telling them in a understanding, empathetic way. Constructive criticism is not like American Idol, burning someone into the ground when he cant sing, but by highlighting the positive aspects together with the negative aspects. Ive found that if you do it like that, you can be a lot more honest without people getting hurt.

Of course, that doesnt exclude situations where you are entirely right, and being dishonest is the only way to comfort someone.
 

Core

Fascinating...
#20
Well, doesnt that also depend on how you tell people how they made the mistake? You can say it in a rather rude, cold assholish way, or you can try to soften it up by telling them in a understanding, empathetic way. Constructive criticism is not like American Idol, burning someone into the ground when he cant sing, but by highlighting the positive aspects together with the negative aspects. Ive found that if you do it like that, you can be a lot more honest without people getting hurt.

Of course, that doesnt exclude situations where you are entirely right, and being dishonest is the only way to comfort someone.

And thats why I am considered an apathetic asshole.

Theres 2 sides to every coin and theres 2 sides to every act. The person committing the act and the person receiving the act. Therefore if you are 100% completely honest with them you have to tell them both sides of the story. Anything short of that is the same as being dishonest.

Omitting truth is deception.
Softening them up or sugarcoating it is deception.
Being understanding is deception.
If they misunderstand you its deception.


Halcyon and on and on