Magnetic field can alter moral judgments?

Arachna

Spider
Staff member
#1
To make moral judgments about other people, we often need to infer their intentions - an ability known as "theory of mind."

And this article cought my attention. :coolgrin:

Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) neuroscientists have shown they can influence people's moral judgments by disrupting the right temporo-parietal junction (TPJ) of the brain. A finding, they say, that helps reveal how the brain constructs morality.

Previous studies have shown that the right TPJ is highly active when we think about other people's intentions, thoughts and beliefs. In the new study, the researchers disrupted activity in the right TPJ by inducing a current in the brain using a magnetic field applied to the scalp. They found that the subjects' ability to make moral judgments that require an understanding of other people's intentions - for example, a failed murder attempt - was impaired.

The study, published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, offers "striking evidence" that the right TPJ, located at the brain's surface above and behind the right ear, is critical for making moral judgments, says MIT's Liane Young, lead author of the paper.

"You think of morality as being a really high-level behavior," Young says. "To be able to apply [a magnetic field] to a specific brain region and change people's moral judgments is really astonishing."

Young's research used a non-invasive technique known as transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS) to selectively interfere with brain activity in the right TPJ. A magnetic field applied to a small area of the skull creates weak electric currents that impede nearby brain cells' ability to fire normally, but the effect is only temporary.
Now then. There is 2 things i wanna say.

If this is true,it is gonna be a perfect alibi for future criminals.

And the second thing would be. Any thoguhts about it?
 
#2
Hmm, first we have to differentiate between "alter" and "impair". From the article it seems that a magnetic field can only impair judgement, not alter it. Basically this is not so much a controlling of moral judgement, but rather an inhibiting of it.
 
#3
Magnets...

Science or whatever, I wouldn't accept it as an alibi for a crime. The problem is not that magnetic fields can have an impact on our moral choices, but that the persons mind is weak enough in submit to it. His problem isn't magnetic fields, his problem is knowing the difference between right and wrong. A depressed person with a weak mind, can easily fall into believing that magnetic fields can alter his actions by creating an illusion around himself. It all depends on the state of the person at question. If a person was a victim of magnetic field mind control he should have gotten help for physiological problems a lot sooner.
 

noex1337

Emmie was here
#5
To make moral judgments about other people, we often need to infer their intentions - an ability known as "theory of mind."

And this article cought my attention. :coolgrin:



Now then. There is 2 things i wanna say.

If this is true,it is gonna be a perfect alibi for future criminals.

And the second thing would be. Any thoguhts about it?
If you don't mind, I'm going to hijack this discussion a bit. If this is true, then forget about criminals, can you think of the implications of society as a whole? What if the government could control the morality of it's subjects? How would society work then?
 

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
#6
Why would the government tamper with peoples ability to make morally correct choices? Say they did it, and people suddenly started to think differently about crime, making crime okay, then the whole country would disolve into chaos as people start looting, thinking its okay to loot. Not to mention the economic implications if screwing over people like they do on Wall Street becomes the new norm.

So, why would a government do something as potentially self destructive as to make people think right is wrong and wrong is right?
 

noex1337

Emmie was here
#7
Why would the government tamper with peoples ability to make morally correct choices? Say they did it, and people suddenly started to think differently about crime, making crime okay, then the whole country would disolve into chaos as people start looting, thinking its okay to loot. Not to mention the economic implications if screwing over people like they do on Wall Street becomes the new norm.

So, why would a government do something as potentially self destructive as to make people think right is wrong and wrong is right?
Self destructive? You act as if the government is stupid. Sure, they may be malevolent, but not stupid. If anything, they would make moral judgment obsolete. Such decisions would already be made for you. It doesn't seem that bad. No more murders, theft, fraud, etc. Sure that may not be the direct result of this research, but i'm thinking in hypotheticals here.
 

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
#8
Self destructive? You act as if the government is stupid. Sure, they may be malevolent, but not stupid. If anything, they would make moral judgment obsolete. Such decisions would already be made for you. It doesn't seem that bad. No more murders, theft, fraud, etc. Sure that may not be the direct result of this research, but i'm thinking in hypotheticals here.
Well, this research only showed that moral judgements were impaired, not controlled. Even then though, you would need to build giant magnets everywhere in the country to control a relatively minor group of people. And it would probably only work on healthy people. Youd still have the mentally disturbed walking around, potentially becoming murderers.

It seems rather impractical.
 

Arachna

Spider
Staff member
#9
If you don't mind, I'm going to hijack this discussion a bit. If this is true, then forget about criminals, can you think of the implications of society as a whole? What if the government could control the morality of it's subjects? How would society work then?
Why did you even ask? :shrug:

You know it..I post a thread and you take over. And i am a one happy puppy. :happy:
Edit : or to say it like this. You can hijack my thread anytime. ;)

Now to switch back to the topic.

A weak human mind can be affected by anything. Right?
 

noex1337

Emmie was here
#10


Why did you even ask? :shrug:
Merely out of curiosity. A society where morality is controlled doesn't seem that bad.

You know it..I post a thread and you take over. And i am a one happy puppy. :happy:
Edit : or to say it like this. You can hijack my thread anytime. ;)
Sounds a bit kinky, but sure. It's a deal.


Now to switch back to the topic.

A weak human mind can be affected by anything. Right?
I don't know where you're going with this, but sure.
 

Arachna

Spider
Staff member
#11
Yey and to continue..


Center are able to scramble the moral center of the brain, making it more difficult for people to separate innocent intentions from harmful outcomes.

"It's one thing to 'know' that we'll find morality in the brain," said Liane Young, a scientist at MIT and co-author of the article. "It's another to 'knock out' that brain area and change people's moral judgments."

This is what i found ,that could explain a bit more what was done :

Young and her colleagues used functional magnetic resonance imaging to locate an area of the brain known as the right temporo-parietal junction (RTPJ) which other studies had previously related to moral judgments.

While muscle movement, language and even memory are found in the same place in each individual, the RTPJ, located behind and above the ear, resides in a slightly different location in each person.

For their experiment, the scientists had 20 subjects read several dozen different stories about people with good or bad intentions that resulted in a variety of outcomes.

One typical story was about a boyfriend who leads his girlfriend across a bridge.
In some versions, the boyfriend harmlessly walked his girlfriend across the bridge with no ill effect.

In other cases, the boyfriend intentionally led the girlfriend along so she would break her ankle.

The subjects used a seven point scale -- one being forbidden and seven completely permissible -- to record whether they through the situation was morally acceptable or not.

While the subjects read the story, the scientists applied a magnetic field using a method known as transcranial magnetic stimulation.

The magnetic fields created confusion in the neurons that make up the RTPJ, said Young, causing them to fire off electrical pulses chaotically.

The confusion in the brain made it harder for subjects to interpret the boyfriend's intent, said Young, and instead made the subjects focus solely on the situation's outcome.
The effect was temporary and safe.


The scientists didn't permanently remove the subjects moral sensibilities.

On the scientists' seven point scale, the difference was about one point and averaged out to about a 15 percent change.


The research could have powerful implications not just for neuroscientists, but for lawyers as well.

Everyday jurors are asked to weigh a person's actions against their intentions.

This new study won't transform the legal field, said Owen Jones, a professor of law and biology at Vanderbilt University, but it could "enable sophisticated judgments about responsibility, harm and appropriate punishment."

"This study, and other recent studies like it, are enabling us to peer into the very brain activity that underlies and enables legal judgments," said Jones. "Understanding how legal decisions actually work is a potentially important step toward helping decisions be as fair, just and effective as they can be."

What the new research won't do is allow a jury, or even an individual, to unwittingly manipulated to favor prosecutors or defendants.

Because it was so obvious that the magnets were turned on, it is unlikely that a person or a group, like a jury, could be swayed to consider a criminal outcome instead of intent, said Young.
 

noex1337

Emmie was here
#12
Yey and to continue..


Center are able to scramble the moral center of the brain, making it more difficult for people to separate innocent intentions from harmful outcomes.




This is what i found ,that could explain a bit more what was done :

Young and her colleagues used functional magnetic resonance imaging to locate an area of the brain known as the right temporo-parietal junction (RTPJ) which other studies had previously related to moral judgments.

While muscle movement, language and even memory are found in the same place in each individual, the RTPJ, located behind and above the ear, resides in a slightly different location in each person.

For their experiment, the scientists had 20 subjects read several dozen different stories about people with good or bad intentions that resulted in a variety of outcomes.

One typical story was about a boyfriend who leads his girlfriend across a bridge.
In some versions, the boyfriend harmlessly walked his girlfriend across the bridge with no ill effect.

In other cases, the boyfriend intentionally led the girlfriend along so she would break her ankle.

The subjects used a seven point scale -- one being forbidden and seven completely permissible -- to record whether they through the situation was morally acceptable or not.

While the subjects read the story, the scientists applied a magnetic field using a method known as transcranial magnetic stimulation.

The magnetic fields created confusion in the neurons that make up the RTPJ, said Young, causing them to fire off electrical pulses chaotically.

The confusion in the brain made it harder for subjects to interpret the boyfriend's intent, said Young, and instead made the subjects focus solely on the situation's outcome.
The effect was temporary and safe.


The scientists didn't permanently remove the subjects moral sensibilities.

On the scientists' seven point scale, the difference was about one point and averaged out to about a 15 percent change.


The research could have powerful implications not just for neuroscientists, but for lawyers as well.

Everyday jurors are asked to weigh a person's actions against their intentions.

This new study won't transform the legal field, said Owen Jones, a professor of law and biology at Vanderbilt University, but it could "enable sophisticated judgments about responsibility, harm and appropriate punishment."

"This study, and other recent studies like it, are enabling us to peer into the very brain activity that underlies and enables legal judgments," said Jones. "Understanding how legal decisions actually work is a potentially important step toward helping decisions be as fair, just and effective as they can be."

What the new research won't do is allow a jury, or even an individual, to unwittingly manipulated to favor prosecutors or defendants.

Because it was so obvious that the magnets were turned on, it is unlikely that a person or a group, like a jury, could be swayed to consider a criminal outcome instead of intent, said Young.
One thing that sticks out to me though is this line "The confusion in the brain made it harder for subjects to interpret the boyfriend's intent, said Young, and instead made the subjects focus solely on the situation's outcome." I wonder, would you say the subjects were more rational because of it?
 

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
#13
One thing that sticks out to me though is this line "The confusion in the brain made it harder for subjects to interpret the boyfriend's intent, said Young, and instead made the subjects focus solely on the situation's outcome." I wonder, would you say the subjects were more rational because of it?
Why would leaving out otherwise readily available data make you more rational? I mean, you essentially leave a part out of the story, if you only look at the outcome. Im not sure if the study included a variation of the story where the intent doesnt match the outcome (so, people with no intent to harm, end up with the girlfriend accidentally breaking her ankle, or people with intent to harm fail to break their girlfriends ankle) but in those cases, leaving out the intent would make the guy with the intent to harm look like a nice guy and the guy without the intent to harm look like a jerk.

I wouldnt say thats makes it more rational.
 

Arachna

Spider
Staff member
#14
One thing that sticks out to me though is this line "The confusion in the brain made it harder for subjects to interpret the boyfriend's intent, said Young, and instead made the subjects focus solely on the situation's outcome." I wonder, would you say the subjects were more rational because of it?
The research did show Magnetic fields made people judge outcomes more than intentions.

When no magnetic field was applied, the subjects focused more on the boyfriend's good intentions, rather than a bad outcome.

When a magnetic field was applied to the RTPJ, the subjects consistently focused on a bad outcome, rather than the intention, and rated the story as more morally objectionable.

Whether it's possible to do the opposite -- making people focus more on intentions than outcomes is beyond my understanding .. ?

But i find it really weird. In any case.

Why would leaving out otherwise readily available data make you more rational? I mean, you essentially leave a part out of the story, if you only look at the outcome. Im not sure if the study included a variation of the story where the intent doesnt match the outcome (so, people with no intent to harm, end up with the girlfriend accidentally breaking her ankle, or people with intent to harm fail to break their girlfriends ankle) but in those cases, leaving out the intent would make the guy with the intent to harm look like a nice guy and the guy without the intent to harm look like a jerk.

I wouldnt say thats makes it more rational.
Well all i can still add is, simply seeing that magents can effect one portion of the mind can open the doors to see what else we can do for ourselves and other people such as helping the mentally disabled.

But i do wonder. What if the scientists themself where affected by the magnetic feild? XD
And what results we would see if magnetic fields were focused on other areas of the brain that controlled different emotions or functions?
So many questions. And so little time. <3