God's Thread

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
[quote name='Undead-Cookie' timestamp='1307146129' post='145577']The true Muslims, will choose to believe God’s words rather than the words of any one else who interpreted. True muslims will always accept the straightforward meaning of the Quranic verse and will always show complete trust and respect for God’s words, instead of being duped into a claim made by the interpreter. As so, God makes it easier for these true muslims to understand the true meaning of the Qur'an as a reward.[/quote]

Tell me, is a 'true Muslim' arrogant and full of pride? Or is he humble and doesnt boast of his devoutness?



And if they were so easy to understand, and so straightforward and simple and what not. Then why didnt he just say so literally like 'Dear Humans, the world you live in is not the only world in existence. There are countless of other worlds, and more of them keep getting created, because the galaxy is ever expanding. It looks like a bubble, within it containing uncountable stars and outside the bubble, there is nothing. But I keep inflating the bubble. Most sincerely, God'. Why the verses and the riddles and the multiple explanations?
 

noex1337

Emmie was here
[quote name='-lexus-' timestamp='1307148954' post='145611']

Tell me, is a 'true Muslim' arrogant and full of pride? Or is he humble and doesnt boast of his devoutness?



And if they were so easy to understand, and so straightforward and simple and what not. Then why didnt he just say so literally like 'Dear Humans, the world you live in is not the only world in existence. There are countless of other worlds, and more of them keep getting created, because the galaxy is ever expanding. It looks like a bubble, within it containing uncountable stars and outside the bubble, there is nothing. But I keep inflating the bubble. Most sincerely, God'. Why the verses and the riddles and the multiple explanations?

[/quote]

What exactly are you talking about here?
 
[quote name='-lexus-' timestamp='1307148954' post='145611']Tell me, is a 'true Muslim' arrogant and full of pride?



Or is he humble and doesnt boast of his devoutness?



And if they were so easy to understand, and so straightforward and simple and what not. Then why didnt he just say so literally like 'Dear Humans, the world you live in is not the only world in existence. There are countless of other worlds, and more of them keep getting created, because the galaxy is ever expanding. It looks like a bubble, within it containing uncountable stars and outside the bubble, there is nothing. But I keep inflating the bubble. Most sincerely, God'. Why the verses and the riddles and the multiple explanations?

[/quote]

Let me just say this, Islam is perfect, Muslims aren't(whether I am able to prove it or not, that's that).

Okay?
 

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
[quote name='Undead-Cookie' timestamp='1307195675' post='146062']

Let me just say this, Islam is perfect, Muslims aren't(whether I am able to prove it or not, that's that).

Okay?

[/quote]

Ok, so youre not a true Muslim?



The true Muslims, will choose to believe God’s words rather than the words of any one else who interpreted. True muslims will always accept the straightforward meaning of the Quranic verse and will always show complete trust and respect for God’s words, instead of being duped into a claim made by the interpreter. As so, God makes it easier for these true muslims to understand the true meaning of the Qur'an as a reward.


So what youre essentially saying is, that you dont listen to what others say a text means, you just accept what you think it means. So, you were reading the Quran one day, came across a text and was like 'Hey, that must mean that the whole universe is expanding!' Hmm, right, but okay. Thats your interpretation of the text, and you assume yours to be true because of what? There are dozens of other people who read the text and think it means something different. That means that either they are all wrong, and you are right, or that you are wrong and someone else is right. But you have no way to be certain you are right and others a wrong. No confirmation from above that you hit the correct answer and everybody who thinks something else doesnt.



So based on what you said here:

“Who is more sinful than those who are reminded of their Lord’s revelations, then disregard them, without realizing what they are doing. Consequently, We place shields on their hearts to prevent them from understanding it (the Quran), and deafness in their ears. Thus, no matter what you do to guide them, they can never be guided†18:57
You could be wrong and you wouldnt even know it. In fact, its more likely then not that you dont understand them, because you are sinful. You were arrogant to suggest you truly understand the meaning of the Quran and others were not, and you were arrogant to try and use a holy text, the revelations of God himself as a way to win a petty argument on the internet. Im sure the Quran says somewhere you shouldnt be arrogant, which means, you have unwittingly disregarded your Lord's revelations. Making you blind and deaf for the true meaning of the Quran.



And since we can say that its highly likely that you dont even understand the real meaning of the Quran and its texts, it would make any text you use to prove a point, meaningless as it probably doesnt mean what you think it means.



And on top of that, it would be pointless as all the non believers here cant be guided, persuaded or made see the true meanings of your texts anyways. For them, it would be meaningless gibberish or highly suggestive and interpretable texts containing nothing of value for them.
 
The subject of God (Or "God(s)" to be politically correct, which I couldn't care less about being) is, without a doubt, one of the most idiotically profound subjects out there. Not because the subject itself is stupid. Nay, it is one of great philosophical importance. What I mean by saying that is merely that only idiots of two extremes seem to populate such discussions: Die hard-wannabe-atheists and fundamental, dogmatic believers. While it may surprise people who know of my atheism to hear this, neither party is getting anywhere. For they are both stuck in a cesspool of absolutes, unable to see the naivety of their actions, and the impossibility of the subject they confront. Perhaps it is because of such people that I feel the need to make my views clear in this writing. Or perhaps I am just a self-centered jerk who thinks his opinions matter (They do, afterall). Either which way, I intend to lay bear my basis for my atheism as well as the issues many atheists and theists confront on the topic. Starting first with a quick note on the topic.
This note in question comes in the form of a sitrep of sorts; that is, a update on the current status of god's existence (Again, I am aware polytheism is even more common within history than monotheism, however I don't feel like being politically correct; so deal with it). Hitherto in the history of philosophy, the primary problem with proving god's existence has been that one cannot, in any known rationalistic or empirical way, support god's existence in the slightest. Many have tried, as we see from Descartes "Ontological argument for god" and the teleological argument of god's existence used by Sir Thomas Aquinas. Nevertheless, all have but fallen flat on their asses for the simple reason that the subject of god seems even too abstract for philosophy. Even science fails to be able to tackle this monstrous topic, as it is unverifiable and not at all observable or inferable and thus all but outside of sciences grasps. So, with this holding true, do we not come to the conclusion that--having all major means of truth taken out of the equation--the topic of god's existence is an unsolvable one? To be blunt, yes it does. And it is this point that I wish to drive home before beginning: There is no absolute proof for, or against, the existence of god(s) on any front. So with this made clear, why should atheism be viewed as valid? Doesn't this not only disprove it, but lend support to agnosticism? Honestly, what does this even have to do with my views?
To put it simply, atheism--or rather, true atheism--remains untouched by this fact. This is not to say that we should completely ignore the above paragraph. Not only is it terrific filler, but it is great food for thought. All it means, however, it that the basis of atheism is independent of the above paragraph. This basis being the fact that there is no justification--or indeed need--for a god's existence. To elaborate on this, there is no proof of god(s). No reason to assume that a god of any shape or form exists. For even the words of prophets are strikingly close to the words of madmen, and in the end, when (Ontologically speaking) reality itself is just an inductive assumption, who are we to assume god's own existence? Please, don't get me wrong, I don't intend to continue on the "ontological skeptic" argument, I am merely making the point that the only reason to assume a god(s) exist is because you want one to. No more, no less.
This alone would not be enough to condemn god's existence though. We need two more factors--two more nails in the coffin--to do that. And these are as follows: The statistical unlikelihood of god's existence and the illogicality of a defined theistic god. For when we take into consideration that, not only is god an extremely unlikely figure to exist, but that an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent god's existence is contradictory, we begin to see theism as what it really is. Philosophy's problemed child.
Without spelling out these issues of a theistic god, allow me to simply say that the above should be obvious enough. So it is often a wonder why atheists do not see it. And a miracle that believers can deny it. But...how can they? Hell, isn't something as common sense as the above almost axiomatic? What in the hell could keep both most atheists and most theists from seeing it?
To answer this, we need to first look at the common perception of atheism. Think about it: What is atheism? What is it to most people who hear the term? Put simply, to them, it is an anti-religious religion which fails to believe in god. And it is this perception that a lot of atheists adopt as well, save the view of atheism as a religion. Given this, allow me to applaud those atheists for their stupidity! Truly, it takes guts to feed into a stereotype like that! Now, with that out of the way, allow me to set the record straight and tell you what atheism really is.
At its heart, atheism is simply the rejection of the belief in any form of god, gods, or deities, in any shape or form. Given this, we see the first signs of how some atheists miss the "obvious facts" above: because they see atheism as being concerned with religion. Which it isn't. Put bluntly, atheism is only concerned with religion insofar as that particular religions god(s) is concerned. Furthermore, given that the notion of a god does not even have to be religious, we start to see the first grave error of most atheists. The second being summed up by the fact that--thinking the first error to be true--they focus their efforts of disproving a theistic god in hopes of completely disproving all notions of "god". All the meanwhile failing to see that they can't.
This is not to say theists are any better, for you see, theists rely on something as blind as faith as evidence or justification. This effectively keeping them form seeing the "Obvious fact" in discussion. That is to say, when they are confronted with these facts, they assert that faith is all that matters. Or that they have felt god. Or that their infallible text says it is so. Idiocy being the main thread in all of these assertions. To prove this, allow me to look at the three statements above one at a time.
The notion that "faith is all that matters" is a hypocritical one. Only when touching on matters pertaining to god or religion will they exhibit this amount of "faith mongering". Meanwhile they demand proof from science, politicians, and everyday life. Moreover, faith itself is the belief without evidence. Ergo why any faith can be seen as essentially blind faith.
Moving on, the second notion that "they (Or someone) has 'felt' god" is a equally disappointing one. Mainly because very little separates those people from madmen. Take the Yorkshire Ripper for example. Saying that Jesus told him to murder and rape woman, the Yorkshire Ripper left a trail of bodies behind him. But how does he differ from the Pope or Jesus himself? All claimed to hear the voice of god. All claimed to feel his presence. Yet one is considered insane, the other two saints or holy men, merely because some cannot stomach the first's actions.
Finally, we come to the notion of an infallible text. To this, all I have to say is that any religious text is chopped full of historical inaccuracies, factual discrepancies, and contradictions. Why? Because these texts are the work of purely men. As such, they are subject to the errors the plague any human work--divinely inspired or not. Though honestly, we can also bring up the point that if I where to say that a pink pony created the universe and provide some historic text that asserted the same, most believers would still be hypocritically inclined towards their own religion's scriptures. Not because one is more valid than the other. But merely because one is more familiar.
So with these things taken into consideration, one can see how blind faith and sheer ignorance can keep a theist from seeing how unlikely a god's existence is. Whether they are now convinced of their personal bias or not, I could care less. Either way, you have the views I promised to give at the start of this writing. So with that said, I leave you to be. I have a cup of tea to brew and quite honestly, a debate about god seems the least appealing thing right now.
 
I believe God is not a conscious entity. While it frankly is possible that millions unto billions of people believe in gods, some growing up in drastically different environments, while not having a common tie, it somehow doesn't seem realistic. Perhaps it's just a nagging notion in humanity's mind that the world, the universe, is so mysterious that someone must've known everything. Perhaps most have to find a straggling hope that someone out there knows what is going on in times of strife, and even an explanation for what is going on in times of happiness.

But perhaps it's not just a nagging notion?

The are several forces in the world, many of which have just been revealed to us in the moments passed. While there are no personified figures looking down at us, no old men on the mountain, there can be a creating force that is behind some of the more pivotal moments in the world. If what we are looking for in search of a deity is a universal creator, then perhaps it is nothing more than another force of nature that we force our own human personifications upon.

And certain things, such as the Abrahamic belief that humans were created in God's own image is not disproved. Was it the whole image or half? It could certainly be that we have the power to create and that is how we reflect that supposed God. Instead, however, we use the concept of God to discriminate and destroy. Yes, there is love and hard work spread as a result of God as well, but that does not change the fact that its supposed existence allowed an excuse for the hateful.
 

noex1337

Emmie was here
While it pains me to mutilate such a well written response, I somehow feel the urge to do it anyway.

Finally, we come to the notion of an infallible text. To this, all I have to say is that any religious text is chopped full of historical inaccuracies, factual discrepancies, and contradictions. Why? Because these texts are the work of purely men. As such, they are subject to the errors the plague any human work--divinely inspired or not. Though honestly, we can also bring up the point that if I where to say that a pink pony created the universe and provide some historic text that asserted the same, most believers would still be hypocritically inclined towards their own religion's scriptures. Not because one is more valid than the other. But merely because one is more familiar.
Most of what you wrote I agree with. While the first paragraph reminds me of a certain comic, I see how you made up for that later on. However, this is the only part I have an issue with. Anyone can assert that a particular text is erroneous, and sure, you can give good reason to why you would believe that. But until you have a proven error, it remains nothing more than a mere assertion. Now, I know this is the exact mindset that you blamed theists for in one of your earlier paragraphs, but seeing as you stated the bible is full of "historical inaccuracies, factual discrepancies, and contradictions", I thought maybe you knew something that I didn't. As such, I'll provide you this opportunity to enlighten me.
 
While it pains me to mutilate such a well written response, I somehow feel the urge to do it anyway.
Don't worry, I am used to backing up my assertions with sources x] You see, you can enjoy it AND bath in its validity :p

Most of what you wrote I agree with. While the first paragraph reminds me of a
certain comic, I see how you made up for that later on. However, this is the only part I have an issue with. Anyone can assert that a particular text is erroneous, and sure, you can give good reason to why you would believe that. But until you have a proven error, it remains nothing more than a mere assertion. Now, I know this is the exact mindset that you blamed theists for in one of your earlier paragraphs, but seeing as you stated the bible is full of "historical inaccuracies, factual discrepancies, and contradictions", I thought maybe you knew something that I didn't. As such, I'll provide you this opportunity to enlighten me.
So, in short, you are requesting proof of my assertion? Jeez...where do I start? I will give you some basic sources; as someone who seems no stranger to critical thinking, I will leave the validity of the sources up to you. Though honestly I rarely use an "Invalid" source as far as I know >.<

To begin:

1.) The Battle of Jericho is an event recorded in the Bible at Joshua 6:1-27. Within that recording of the event, several assertions are made. Among them, that the walls fell ("...and the wall of the city shall fall down flat, and the people shall go up every man straight before him."), and when the battle took place (Wikipedia has valid sources backing this up, and says it best: "In 1907-09 and again in 1911 digging was carried out by two German archaeologists, Carl Watzinger and Ernest Sellin. Watzinger and Sellin believed that they would be able to validate the Biblical story of Jericho's destruction by Joshua and the Israelites, but concluded instead that the data indicated that the city was unoccupied at the time which the Bible indicated for the Conquest."). And before you scream about Wikipedia, know that Wikipedia is only as good as it's sources. It is up to you to check them.

-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jericho#Historicity

-- http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0606.htm#1

A good listing of historical inaccuracies can also be found here: http://blondguys.net/1996/old/000250.html Since they provide the passage, you can easily verify them yourself. The same can be said about: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/science/long.html

2.) As for some contradictions, there are loads of them. Most semantically charged, but a few bearing a bit more weight. For example:

--
...and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. (Matthew 1:16)
Which contradicts the assertion of Joseph's father at:

--
Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli, ... (Luke 3:23)
--
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he said this, he breathed his last. (Luke 23:46)
Which contradicts Jesus' last words as written down in:

--
When he received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. (John 19:30)
--
They were also the chief officials in charge of Solomon's projects -- 550 officials supervising the men who did the work. (1 Kings 9:23)
Which contradicts the tally of men in:

--
They were also King Solomon's chief officials -- two hundred and fifty officials supervising the men. (2 Chronicles 8:10)
--
And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen. (1 Kings 4:26)
This passage in the King James Bible contradicts the same passage in the New International Version, clearly showing alteration of "God's word" in:

--
Solomon had four thousand stalls for chariot horses and twelve thousand horses. (1 Kings 4:26)
--
... I make peace, and create evil: ... (Isaiah 45:7)
Compared to

--
... I bring prosperity and create disaster; ... (Isaiah 45:7)
As before, the KJV passage differs from the NIV passage, my point in showing this merely to show some contradictions in not only in the same version of the Bible, but to showcase the differences between two translations in which the "Word" of god is changed. That word of god, mind you, supposedly being infallible.

3.) Factual inaccuracies in the Christian bible are everywhere. Take for example, the order of creation. Not only are there two creations (A contradiction) but plants where created before the sun, and Adam left to name the animals (An impossible task, or one that is humanly impossible). One could say that Genesis is to be taken as an allegory, however there is absolutely no reason for this. Nothing in the entirety of the Bible points to viewing Genesis as an allegory; the only reason people do that is so they can continue to view it as valid. Anyway, I only list a few of each type of error merely to show you that they exist. This alone is a solid reply to your post, which seems to state that no such errors exist. I list only the Bible because I feel that you felt that was my main object of attack. It wasn't. If you require, I can provide a like list for the Bhagvad-Gita, the Quran, the Torah, the Dhammapada, etc. Though mainly the first and last, as I have written quite a bit on the two and read them multiple times. But this would take hours, and I save it only at your request.
 
Scientists cant pin point the location of a subatomic partical, the more they try to look the more they cant find it. Thus suggesting something is creating the situation for them to look for it.
Fallacy one: An action does not divine inspiration. I may get up to look in the pantry for some food, but that does not mean I am driven by god to do it, or that the situation (Me being hungry) has to be created via a higher being. Furthermore, even if it did have to be created, you make the logical jump that it MUST be created by god. Stapling the Uncertainty Principle onto this for no reason fails to validate it, by the way.

Because everything thats solid is vibrating, and suggest that something intellegent is holding those forms in vibration for them to be solid. That force or w/e is held together, is commonly considered god. Which relates to quantum physics, and how we create our own reality, and whatever helps us create our reality and hold it together, thus suggesting that consciousness is the real force behind reality, and that its shared through everyone meaning we all have some form of god in us.
Fallacy two: The assumption that god must be holding together the form of matter in a solid state. In all Probability , it is likely a natural law yet discovered. You have no justification to assume such a jump in logic.

Outside of the fallacy, it must be noted that what you are stating is, to some degree, in error. Though it could be remedied. The best way to do this is to state that on the atomic scale, there is space between the sub-atomic particles of atoms. Thus, what is considered solid is not really solid, as the majority of it is space between the sub-atomic particles of the atom. I use this instead of the word "Vibrations" because of the connotations the word "vibrations" has with String Theory. Now, moving on, whether we create our reality or not is UNKNOWN to those in the realm of Quantum Mechanics. Changes in the wave-function of particles, that is, where observation collapses that wave-function into a observable reality, does not--in and of itself--prove we manipulate reality. For we must keep in mind that first: wave-particle duality is only a mathematical analogy; and two: at the very core, wave-particle duality could be explained by our perceptions; e.g. reality could be in one wave-function, and we perceived it as in a collapsed state, Either which way, you cannot create something with your mind, or make a wall appear from nowhere. So this should be some hint as to the scope of reality manipulation, if it does indeed exist within humanity.
 
Fallacy one: An action does not divine inspiration. I may get up to look in the pantry for some food, but that does not mean I am driven by god to do it, or that the situation (Me being hungry) has to be created via a higher being. Furthermore, even if it did have to be created, you make the logical jump that it MUST be created by god. Stapling the Uncertainty Principle onto this for no reason fails to validate it, by the way.
Nope, I clearly said in the post that anything you do is of your own free will and granted by only you. If "god" where really that controlling, well then physical matter wouldent be present, nor your own thoughts. Like I said, I dont think of god as a person nor as a controlling force. You have your own free will to do what you like.

Fallacy two: The assumption that god must be holding together the form of matter in a solid state. In all portability, it is likely a natural law yet discovered. You have no justification to assume such a jump in logic.
Like I said, its being held together by something. Plus like I said, the exact location of a sub atomic particle cannot be located, which relates to the situation of it being created by looking for something, as long as you look for it you'll get just that, a situation where youre looking for it because atomss react to consciousness of your own (and everyones). Thus going back to what I said about people having god flowing through them able to create their own reality and nulling what you said about something driving you to do it. Its you doing it.

Outside of the fallacy, it must be noted that what you are stating is, to some degree, in error. Though it could be remedied. The best way to do this is to state that on the atomic scale, there is space between the sub-atomic particles of atoms. Thus, what is considered solid is not really solid, as the majority of it is space between the sub-atomic particles of the atom.

Exactly? So whats holding it all together? And whats creating the illusion of it being there? If its not real, then its being made up, then we know the reason why it feels real is because your body's perceptions are taking it in, sound, site, and so on. After all, we c ant experience it if we dont get the stimuli. And if you relate what I said before that the more they tried to pin point the location, the more they couldent find it suggesting its them creating the situation, then its easy to relate that they couldent come to the conclusion that they couldent pin point the locationg without *looking* (stimuli) for it.

I use this instead of the word "Vibrations" because of the connotations the word "vibrations" has with String Theory. Now, moving on, whether we create our reality or not is UNKNOWN to those in the realm of Quantum Mechanics. Changes in the wave-function of particles, that is, where observation collapses that wave-function into a observable reality, does not--in and of itself--prove we manipulate reality.
Its been shown, with the study's of how atoms react to consciousness.


For we must keep in mind that first: wave-particle duality is only a mathematical analogy; and two: at the very core, wave-particle duality could be explained by our perceptions; e.g. reality could be in one wave-function, and we perceived it as in a collapsed state, Either which way, you cannot create something with your mind, or make a wall appear from nowhere. So this should be some hint as to the scope of reality manipulation, if it does indeed exist within humanity.
Of course you cant create things out of thin air, theres physical laws that apply. You can create a wall, and your mind will lead you to how to make it. "get a job, buy the materials, take time once a week" and so on, so in essence, you still are making walls out of thin air. Not making it magically appear out of thin air instantly, but youre still making one out of nothing because it started in your mind so before you know it you have your wall right in front of you. You created your own situation for your wall.
 

Nope, I clearly said in the post that anything you do is of your own free will and granted by only you. If "god" where really that controlling, well then physical matter wouldent be present, nor your own thoughts. Like I said, I dont think of god as a person nor as a controlling force. You have your own free will to do what you like.

Really? Where in this post:

Scientists cant pin point the location of a subatomic partical, the more they try to look the more they cant find it. Thus suggesting something is creating the situation for them to look for it. Because everything thats solid is vibrating, and suggest that something intellegent is holding those forms in vibration for them to be solid. That force or w/e is held together, is commonly considered god. Which relates to quantum physics, and how we create our own reality, and whatever helps us create our reality and hold it together, thus suggesting that consciousness is the real force behind reality, and that its shared through everyone meaning we all have some form of god in us.

do you make that clear? Please, by all means, bold it for me.


Like I said, its being held together by something. Plus like I said, the exact location of a sub atomic particle cannot be located, which relates to the situation of it being created by looking for something, as long as you look for it you'll get just that, a situation where youre looking for it because atomss react to consciousness of your own (and everyones). Thus going back to what I said about people having god flowing through them able to create their own reality and nulling what you said about something driving you to do it. Its you doing it.

Normally I am more telling, but show your sources. I feel as if this is being pulled out of thin air. If you can give me a valid source that proves that, for example, atoms react with consciousness, than I will concede to your point. However conscious observation of an atom merely results in its wave-function collapse. Thus I am confused as to whether or not you even know what you are talking about. And as to whether you are pulling this out of thin air or some pseudoscience source.

Exactly? So whats holding it all together? And whats creating the illusion of it being there? If its not real, then its being made up, then we know the reason why it feels real is because your body's perceptions are taking it in, sound, site, and so on. After all, we c ant experience it if we dont get the stimuli. And if you relate what I said before that the more they tried to pin point the location, the more they couldent find it suggesting its them creating the situation, then its easy to relate that they couldent come to the conclusion that they couldent pin point the locationg without *looking* (stimuli) for it.

The human mind is capable of illusions without stimuli. Visual illusions from a Schizophrenic, or like illusions from someone taking LSD while in sensory depravation disprove this assertion. Either way, you jump to the conclusion of god. Let's say you have given me valid sources which show that you are not making stuff up or copying it off some bad forum. Why should we instantly assume god is related?

Its been shown, with the study's of how atoms react to consciousness.

Since you claim studies, you won't mind citing them, would you? Perhaps who did the study, where, what year, or a link to the findings (Primary or secondary welcome). Surely if you are ready to assert that a study took place, you are ready to back it up.



Of course you cant create things out of thin air, theres physical laws that apply. You can create a wall, and your mind will lead you to how to make it. "get a job, buy the materials, take time once a week" and so on, so in essence, you still are making walls out of thin air. Not making it magically appear out of thin air instantly, but youre still making one out of nothing because it started in your mind so before you know it you have your wall right in front of you. You created your own situation for your wall.
\


Ergo, you support my point. If we could manipulate reality, we should be able to theoretically create a wall out of thin air. Why can't we? While everything you said seems to be pulled from nowhere (AS I said, I needed sources to disprove this), if it where to be true, this still would remain unexplained. As would how it exactly related to the existence of god.
 
Really? Where in this post:



do you make that clear? Please, by all means, bold it for me.
Common sense.





The human mind is capable of illusions without stimuli. Visual illusions from a Schizophrenic, or like illusions from someone taking LSD while in sensory depravation disprove this assertion. Either way, you jump to the conclusion of god. Let's say you have given me valid sources which show that you are not making stuff up or copying it off some bad forum. Why should we instantly assume god is related?
Thats right, it is capable of stimuli by itself. Typically what you imagine or what you think of something is life and want is what you try to set out to get in life.


Since you claim studies, you won't mind citing them, would you? Perhaps who did the study, where, what year, or a link to the findings (Primary or secondary welcome). Surely if you are ready to assert that a study took place, you are ready to back it up.
I dont feel like it and its common sense. Do a 3 second google research and you'll see what I was saying was true. Or just post "lol he wont get it for me since I clearly dont know what hes talking about and I wont take 3 seconds to google, hes wrong" I thought you knew this stuff already by how you were talking earlier.



I suggest going to go study quantum physics along with how the brain works (it is an electronic organ), how energy works, and the energy systems of the body. You where talking all big and bad like you could disprove me, yet now I come to find out you dont know the complete details on what is thats being discussed. It only takes basic understanding an a general picture of everything to get what I'm saying.


Ergo, you support my point. If we could manipulate reality, we should be able to theoretically create a wall out of thin air. Why can't we?
I just said physical laws apply. And I just gave you an example of how we do create walls.

While everything you said seems to be pulled from nowhere (AS I said, I needed sources to disprove this), if it where to be true, this still would remain unexplained. As would how it exactly related to the existence of god.
lol, dude I was just siting Quantam Mechanics along with other things, where are you getting this thin air thing from? How can you even come to that conclusion if what I'm saying is right or wrong when you dont even know all the details of the subject at hand lol.

Anyways, untill you can come back here and say something to actually prove me wrong (which you haven't), then I'll reply. The whole reason were even talking about this was because you said you could prove me wrong after me claiming everything I said cant be proven wrong (which still has yet to be done by you). The only thing you've done is have ignorance in the whole conversation and repeat yourself about pulling things out of thin air, you just wrote me 3 paragraphs repeating that and really didnt talk about anything.
 

Zero Phoenix

The Second Coming of Hazama
Shard, you're going to have to review your assertions that the Bible contradicted itself with regards to Jesus, Jacob, and Joseph. My interpretation appears to be quite different from yours.
 

Kaze Araki

Libertarian Communist
@Crom
So, I'm not the only one that is wary of your interpretation of Quantum Physics. Nevertheless, I stand corrected if you can show me any studies that support your claims.

I dont feel like it and its common sense. Do a 3 second google research and you'll see what I was saying was true. Or just post "lol he wont get it for me since I clearly dont know what hes talking about and I wont take 3 seconds to google, hes wrong" I thought you knew this stuff already by how you were talking earlier.
This doesn't seems to make any sense to me.
 
@Crom
So, I'm not the only one that is wary of your interpretation of Quantum Physics. Nevertheless, I stand corrected if you can show me any studies that support your claims.


This doesn't seems to make any sense to me.
Means I dont feel like debating with someone who doesnt know all the facts of what he claimed, and to google it himself since its relatively easy info to find.
 

Kaze Araki

Libertarian Communist
Through out this section, you'll see people providing sources when asked for, so why don't you? I'm seriously would like to know which studies that you used as the basis of your claims (I strongly doubt they exist), or if not - other type of sources. It's not about Googling, but no one can specifically counter your arguments or concede their wrongs without you giving the exact sources for them to scrutinize.
 
Through out this section, you'll see people providing sources when asked for, so why don't you? I'm seriously would like to know which studies that you used as the basis of your claims (I strongly doubt they exist), or if not - other type of sources. It's not about Googling, but no one can specifically counter your arguments or concede their wrongs without you giving the exact sources for them to scrutinize.
Yeah I know. The thing is that I dont have the links I had long ago to the good sources when I first started knowing about this stuff, and I really dont feel like looking for them because I dont really feel like debating. I thought the person already know the study of how consciousness effects matter, and thats the only thing that even brought me to this thread is his whole claim of proving me wrong which only came about because he wanted to be defiant to my egocentric statement. He himself had agree'd with it for the most part, he said it himself, and you can see the similarities of one of his previous posts in relation to what I first said.

Plus no one was gonna debate untill I meantioned it in the spam thread that what I said was undebatable truth (which it is, since everything I said back in the first post isnt even being questioned, just what I mentioned right now), because my facts are just that, facts. What I said about consciousness effecting matter is a fact and study and theres been many facts and examples to prove it. And no, I dont feel like getting the results (which will most likely be on the first page of google) or discussing it more untill people actually know about what I'm saying completely. Or proves one of my facts wrong, which wont happen because theyre facts.
 
[MENTION=22]Crom[/MENTION]

Common sense.

Really? Well, let's see if this holds water, shall we?

First with this:

Scientists cant pin point the location of a subatomic partical, the more they try to look the more they cant find it.

First sentence....and look! I don't see anything about free will or god controlling physical matter. Shall we move on?

Thus suggesting something is creating the situation for them to look for it

And yet again, Nothing on said topics! Nothing on free will here...and nothing about god not being a person or force.

Because everything thats solid is vibrating, and suggest that something intellegent is holding those forms in vibration for them to be solid.

Now I admit, at this point, this is more of a game. But I see nothing about free will, or not seeing god as a person here either...

Because everything thats solid is vibrating, and suggest that something intellegent is holding those forms in vibration for them to be solid.

And again, NOTHING on the topics in question. See, I would say that I would have to be psychic to tell that you where inferring to those topics in that post. If you don't believe me, re-read your own post. No where in it does the word "Free will" even appear, nor a phrase indicating not to view god as a person. Without continuing this farce, I will continue to my next point.

Thats right, it is capable of stimuli by itself. Typically what you imagine or what you think of something is life and want is what you try to set out to get in life.

Eh, no. When Albert Hoffman, the creator of LSD was first accidentally dosed, do you want to know what he saw? His furniture trying to eat him. This was not a reflection of what he wanted. Furthermore, there was very little sensory stimulus in such a case (As with any visual illusion). Your point has been thoroughly debunked, move on.

I dont feel like it and its common sense. Do a 3 second google research and you'll see what I was saying was true. Or just post "lol he wont get it for me since I clearly dont know what hes talking about and I wont take 3 seconds to google, hes wrong" I thought you knew this stuff already by how you were talking earlier

I did a Google search, it came up with no valid sources for about ten pages. After that, I felt my point was made. Do the same search yourself, I looked up "Human manipulation of reality", "Atoms consciousness" and "uncertainty principle god", as well as various mixings of these key words. Nothing. Zip. Zero. Nada. Or at least nothing that backs up your assertions. Look for yourself, and if I am wrong and you find something, by all means: link it to me.

Given this, I honestly think you are making all of this up. You put together some things you felt were right and labeled it as truth. But it isn't, as I have shown. Now, if you can show me some sources, since I obviously am having a hard time wading through millions of search options to find one (Big surprise there!), I would be grateful.

I suggest going to go study quantum physics along with how the brain works (it is an electronic organ), how energy works, and the energy systems of the body. You where talking all big and bad like you could disprove me, yet now I come to find out you dont know the complete details on what is thats being discussed. It only takes basic understanding an a general picture of everything to get what I'm saying.

All of this is irrelevant to your point. By the way, the brain is best summed up as an electro-chemical computation device which is guided by higher mental functionalities. A simple definition as the one you gave is insufficient, and leaves out multi-parallel processing, cognition, etc. I am not going to sit hear and repeat myself, so go ask other's. A neutral outside observer that is, and see what they think. I hate to sound like I am attacking you T.T You are a fun guy to chat with, but this is the way I have to deliver the point in debate, sorry man.


I just said physical laws apply. And I just gave you an example of how we do create walls

Let me sum this up for you; if we can control reality, physical laws need not apply. They are intertwined with reality. Moreover, if we go along how you are saying, then you are just stating the obvious. You are saying "A human can do things humanly possible", which doesn't help you or your assertions.

lol, dude I was just siting Quantam Mechanics along with other things, where are you getting this thin air thing from? How can you even come to that conclusion if what I'm saying is right or wrong when you dont even know all the details of the subject at hand lol.

Look, I know the details. I can give you the equations to the Uncertainty Principle and explain them if you so wish, but it means very little. YOU said you knew these things, YOU said they where proof. Now you are upset because I asked you to prove that? I just want to know that what you say is more than your words, but you cannot even do that. Your argument is thusly nothing. You have no basis. Everything you said thus far is pseudoscience, and you cannot even show me otherwise. For if you really have researched this, it is merely a matter of telling me where you researched. But you will not even do that. You say that atoms are effected by consciousness, but you don't support it. You know what, Pink Pony's effects reality and control you and your mind! It's common sense! I don't need to use logic or give sources by your means of debate, so how are you to disprove this assertion of mine? In the end, that is all your assertion is, a statement that you will not allow to be killed off, for if you just say the truth, that you have no sources, that is what will happen to the assertion. It will be seem as bogus opinion. You are relying on games to prove your point. I am asking for evidence: sources, something that is expected in EVERY debate.

Anyways, untill you can come back here and say something to actually prove me wrong (which you haven't), then I'll reply. The whole reason were even talking about this was because you said you could prove me wrong after me claiming everything I said cant be proven wrong (which still has yet to be done by you). The only thing you've done is have ignorance in the whole conversation and repeat yourself about pulling things out of thin air, you just wrote me 3 paragraphs repeating that and really didnt talk about anything.

I've proven it wrong. I have moved from showing fallacies to showing you the game you are playing, to offering you the means to settle this (Poll perhaps, via outside observers). This is not a repeat. So reply if you like.
 

Biomega

Net Ronin Of All Trades
1/2

Billion-Degree Dragon said:
"The Most Gracious. Teacher of the Quran." 55:1-2
"Then it is We who will explain it." 75:19

“We have made it (the Quran) easy to understand and in your own tongue (language) may you take heed” 44:58

Yet, some claim that it is not easy at all to understand, so they believe that this is a contradiction, even some muslims do.
=========Then God is doing a shitty job at explaining it to us.

Plus, is that a requirement to study the hardest language in the world? Not everyone knows Arabic. If you don't know Arabic, we all know the Arabic is the hardest language to learn. Heck, one can take a month course in any Mandarin, and they will easily pick it up(with most of the logograms), but will take a couple of years to get it Arabic right.

Okay, let's go to the next rebuttal.

Billion-Degree Dragon said:
However, it becomes a contradiction because they believe them as so.(God's descision).
Therefore,God confirms:
“Who is more sinful than those who are reminded of their Lord’s revelations, then disregard them, without realizing what they are doing. Consequently, We place shields on their hearts to prevent them from understanding it (the Quran), and deafness in their ears. Thus, no matter what you do to guide them, they can never be guided” 18:57
===========Isn't that an obvious scare tactic? It's like, if you don't be my friend, you will never know the secret of my little club. And that if you become my enemy, you will never join me. Something only little kids deploy.

But then again, Muhammad speaks the truth. Anyone who is skeptical of this poetical blabber, does not believe in it, perhaps will never "understand it", because they are not onw of the "enlightened".

Billion-Degree Dragon said:
The true Muslims, will choose to believe God’s words rather than the words of any one else who interpreted. True muslims will always accept the straightforward meaning of the Quranic verse and will always show complete trust and respect for God’s words, instead of being duped into a claim made by the interpreter. As so, God makes it easier for these true muslims to understand the true meaning of the Qur'an as a reward.
============Words of God(Muhammad's) is clear cut obvious, but because of people like you who tries to give himself the "I am the enlightened, and God rewarded me with knowledge" will obviously say stuff like that, and make their own interpretation.

You know how many books I have here have different, different definitions and meaning? That means, why should I take your definition of the Quran(in which you attempt to make it more scientific)?

The more you show to me a verse that seems like scientific, the more clearer it becomes, ironically, it becomes less and less vague and easily track down its basis and origin. They are not miracles. But you love to convince yourself the otherwise.

Billion-Degree Dragon said:
Unfortunately, as seen in the above verse, for the unbelievers, God has placed shields over their eyes and hearts which will eventually stop them from understanding. And so, they find it hard to understand and they are easily able to accept the interpreters words(even some Muslims who have a week faith), rather than God's,whether they be a professors of the Arabic language or a person with an IQ of 180.
============Unfortunately, God(Muhammad) used the most childish methods.

But, let's take it in a differently this time, for the sake of understanding.

If 'God' says "I am going home" from what I have understood from you, we should understand that God is going home -- but there are people who believes in God, who can come up the interpretation "God is going to sit on his chair" from the "I am going home" -- after a consensus, should this be the main interpretation? But the problem arises when many of those interpreters(Who believes in God, whose heart is not blinded or whatever) comes to their own conclusion and interpretation. Whose word should we take?

Sheikh's Hakims? Sheikh's Assad? They are all godammned enlightened, whose heart is not blinded! BUT NO, we take the word of Sheikh Hassan, because his interpretation is more closer to science. But then again, his interpretation could be wrong, no?

Billion-Degree Dragon said:
I'm not so sure about what you are trying to say but let's go through the original verse(advanced):


Code:
أَوَلَمْ يَرَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا أَنَّ السَّمَاوَاتِوَالْأَرْضَكَانَتَارَتْقًا فَفَتَقْنَاهُمَا-  وَجَعَلْنَا مِنَ الْمَاءِ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ حَيٍّ ? أَفَلَا يُؤْمِنُونَ
Translation:
Code:
Have not the disbelievers seen that the Heavens and the Earth [i.e. the Universe], KaanaTaa [were both] Rathqan(Fused), Fa [then], FataqNaa [We Fataq (Parted)] HuMaa [Them Both].
Code:
And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
[b][surah al Anbiya 21:30][/b]

Here is one of the conclusions from the big-bang theory:

The heavens [samaawaat] and the earth ['ArD] (an arabic expression referring to the Universe).

Code:
Rathqan [ رَتْقًا]
Something which is fused and inseparable. This word was used in classical arabic when a mother is carrying a child during pregnancy (because they are inseparable), and when she is delivering the child.

Code:
Fataqa [ فَتَقْ]
They are Parting up i.e. Her body is parting open and also she is parting from her child (in separation from pregnancy).

The heavens and earth used to be fused and inseparable, but then Allah caused them to part and separate. In original form - the universe was united as one entity/matter, and they separated /spread out to become separate (individual type) distinguished entities.

This Expansion of the Universe is supported in the Qur'an when Allah tells us;

Code:
وَالسَّمَاءَبَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّالَمُوسِعُونَ
Translation:
Code:
And the Universe, Weconstructed it with Power, and Surely We, Surely are it'sExpander.
[surahal Dhariyat 51:47]
Code:
Wasi'
Means : To Expand/Vasten.

Code:
muWsi'uwn
- from the word Wasi' = to Expand/Vasten. = Expander.
= Surely, We [Royal We - referring to God] are its muWsi'uwn = Expander.


This is further supported in a translation by Dr. Ghali on
Code:
Quran.com
:

Code:
...surely We are indeed extending (it) wide. [al Dhariyat 51:47]
[youtube]68c6oztyNJc[/youtube][/spoilera]
========You are being redundant, I have debunked that claim but you keep pushing it to me. Using the same explanation that I have debunked.

See, Universe was a point scaled matter that is infinitely dense and hot. Eventually, it expanded -- enflated like a baloon. There was nothing out there, just neutrons and protons and...

Why am I tiring myself? Watch this dude and learn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFjwXe-pXvM

After finishing the part, you see, there is no mention of earth or "Heavn" -- Earth is a conglomerate of solid masses, mainly rocks and metal, that conjoined over millions of years -- that's how earth was created, and among astrogeologist, this is how earth was made, and not the "Heaven and Earth cloven asunder" or whatever the Quran claims.

Billion-Degree Dragon said:
You have misinterpreted this verse.Please read the verse once again carefully:
Code:
"And of everything We created pairs"
I fail to see how this verse was talking about males and females(implied by the word everything).
The verse was clearly talking about pairs.
If you had studied Quantum Mechanics (maybe) you would have clearly understood the verse.
Then what are these pairs?
Matter and anti-matter. When these two pairs collide, they annihilate each other and turns in to a flash of pure energy.
We already know that from the scientific POV, when the universe was created, matter and anti-matter emerged equally from the Big Bang.
Therefore, it was all a false accusation from your side. The verse was misinterpreted, it was not talking about reproduction, implied by two words : "Pairs" and "everything".
For more information about antimatter, please visit:
http://livefromcern.web.cern.ch/livefromcern/antimatter/


First of all, just because something can survive without water, doesn't mean that it wasn't created by water.

For example, if I was created from something which was created from water, then in a sense, I'm still created from water. Moreover, there are huge blocks blocking the validity of this hypothesis.:(ie:harmful substances were also produced in the experiment; Tar and Carboxylic acids).No?
I think it's safe to assume that the hypothesis about abiogenesis is implausible(unfalsifiable as well).
Secondly,abiogenesis is a hypothesis which is incomplete, and I can't even call this a Scientific one.

Thirdly,in Surah Anbiyaa the Quran claims that Every life form was created from water, with the exception of Jinn(as confirmed elsewhere in the Qur'an).
However this is not a contradiction, becuase, we aren't sure whether bacteria qualifies as life or not(THEOLOGICALLY).
Furthermore, it's unclear whether the verse was reffered in a litteral or in a figurative manner.
Therefore, this seems to be a strawman(IMO) from your side.
======My dear, the concept of Duality is older than the Torah. It's an Eastern Dharmic lexicalised concept. If Quran says, pair, we are obviously talking about Yin and Yang. As you can see, this "concept" of "pairs" is a stolen one. But it is difficult for you to get that, because, of course, you are one of the "enlightened".

Abiogenesis is not a "Scientific one"? You make me laugh. I think you don't know what inductive reasoning means or scientific method now, do you?

Also, where is Djinn? Have you ever seen a Djinn? I have never seen a Djinn? Let me use my inductive reasoning... um... yes! I have heard and seen Djinns, in fairy tales!

Who cares if Bacteria theologically qualifies as life. Thanks to Robert Hooke we come to know about Bacteria. And what qualifies as life is anything that shows molecular motion.

Did you know that you have just contradicted yourself. In the first few words you say we, sorry, you(the enlightened one) can understand the Quran, know you say you don't know whether that verse is set in figurative or literal manner? Oh, wow.

Billion-Degree Dragon said:
My brother, that was not the verse which implied(IMO) about the 7 layers, these are:

Code:
It is He Who created everything on the earth for you and then directed His attention up to heaven and arranged it into seven regular heavens. He has knowledge of all things. (Qur'an, 2:29)
Code:
Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke. In two days He determined them as seven heavens and revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate. (Qur'an, 41:11-12)
Example(mendate):
Code:
"and we made the Samaa (sky) a secure ceiling" 21:32
Indicating a mandate of the atmosphere(logically.

Not so sure where you are getting at, however, this verse is supported(repeated below):
Code:
"Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke. In two days He determined them as seven heavens and revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate." (Qur'an, 41:11-12)
By:
Code:
" Until he reached the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had provided no shield against it (the sun)." 18:90
There are a couple of things which this verse implied, my brother.As we can see,according to the verse, we can infer that if there was no harm to come from, a sheild would be unnescesary. However,for the fact that the word "Sheild" was mentioned in the verse, clearly implied that there is something harmful coming from the sun. Yet a shield was not provided.Maybe it was referring to the holes in the Ozone layer.

Anyway, pleae note that during that time of the revelation of the Quran, the word “space” was not known, as so, the people used the word “heaven”(Al Sama) to refer to what lies above the Earth.

I believe that there are two variations:
Code:
1- The Plural form :
"Samaawaat" (Skies) - Used to indicate the heavens or the universe as a whole.

Code:
2- The Singular form :
"Sama" (Sky) - Used to indicate the instant sky or the Earth atmosphere.

Below, I will demonstrate a good Example:
EG 1:
Code:
"God created the 'samawat' (heavens) and the earth, truthfully. This provides a sufficient proof for the believers." (Quruan 29:44)
As you are familliar with Arab as well, you will notice the word "samawat" (plural) means heavens or universes.

EG 2:
Code:
2- "He (God) sends down from the 'samaa' (sky) water for your drink, and to grow trees for your benefit." (Quruan 16:10)[/SPOILER]
In this verse, the word "samaa" (singular) means our instant sky.
===========You are being redundant agian. But don't worry, Chapter 2, verse 29 debunks this claim.

God says he made "Sama" the "immediate sky" into Seven "heavens". So much for heavens. And there is the word "Koun" which means Universe. Lol @ God's limited vocabulary.