Equality the Bitter Illusion

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
#23
Hmmm I am kind of wondering, are you hinting at actual slavery in your opening post. Like with humans not having equal political rights and such?

Because I think being equally before the law and having equal political rights doesnt mean you are technically equal nor does it mean that 'inferior' men then suddenly should be put in places where they dont belong.

Our society is equal yet unequal. Every person has the right to vote, and he will be judged similar (should be at least) before the law as anyone else. That is what made him equal and I think that was what Lincoln was referring to. Still, we are unequal because obviously, one guy drives a Ferrari while the next guy needs to take the subway to get to work. We are unequal because one guy makes 10k a year and the other a 100k. We are unequal because one guy gets to be the president of the country while the other is only a janitor at a community college. That is how we decide the natural order. The guy who earns more or has more power, is more capable, smarter, stronger, etc then the guy who earns less. We measure the natural order by social status, wealth and power. And the reason why you get more out of life then someone else is because you were born with a predisposition towards intelligence, strength, and more importantly, you managed to make the most out of this comparative advantage over others. You maxed out your abilities or played on your strengths.

I like it this way. Differences are healthy, but everyone should have the chance to build out his strengths, even if they are minimal compared to others. And no need to see these persons as inferior. Even janitors play an important role in society.
 

Zero Phoenix

The Second Coming of Hazama
#24
Hmmm I am kind of wondering, are you hinting at actual slavery in your opening post. Like with humans not having equal political rights and such?
Sort of. While I don't share his views, Grotius argued that slavery was justified because some people are born inferior. Rousseau begged to differ. However I wanted to address both viewpoints.


Because I think being equally before the law and having equal political rights doesnt mean you are technically equal nor does it mean that 'inferior' men then suddenly should be put in places where they dont belong.
Rousseau would agree with that as do I.



Our society is equal yet unequal. Every person has the right to vote, and he will be judged similar (should be at least) before the law as anyone else. That is what made him equal and I think that was what Lincoln was referring to. Still, we are unequal because obviously, one guy drives a Ferrari while the next guy needs to take the subway to get to work. We are unequal because one guy makes 10k a year and the other a 100k. We are unequal because one guy gets to be the president of the country while the other is only a janitor at a community college.
The question arises, which are inequalities caused by nature and which are inequalities caused by society.



That is how we decide the natural order. The guy who earns more or has more power, is more capable, smarter, stronger, etc then the guy who earns less. We measure the natural order by social status, wealth and power. And the reason why you get more out of life then someone else is because you were born with a predisposition towards intelligence, strength, and more importantly, you managed to make the most out of this comparative advantage over others. You maxed out your abilities or played on your strengths.
Grotius would argue that said qualities make one group of people superior to another group of people. He would go onto say that Elitism is not only justified by natural. Again, and I'm making this clear for Noex, I'm not supporting his position but I'm trying to give both philosophers equal air time.



I like it this way. Differences are healthy, but everyone should have the chance to build out his strengths, even if they are minimal compared to others. And no need to see these persons as inferior. Even janitors play an important role in society.
I approve. ;mhm;
 

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
#25
The question arises, which are inequalities caused by nature and which are inequalities caused by society.
Well, in all those cases, the difference is probably success. One person is probably pretty successful at something, or he wouldnt have all that money or power. But what caused the success? I think the current consensus is that its a bit of a mix of both nature and surrounding and probably also luck. Say we take a professional athlete. At some point, he must have impressed someone enough for him to get encouraged into doing it more. So that requires at least a little bit of natural skill, and also luck that you were noticed by the right guy at the right moment. Anyways, our athlete goes on to train more, along the way impressing more people who keep encouraging him to keep on going. This goes on and on until he peaks at some point. I suppose that the moment you reach the peak is also something that is born into you (someone born with astma probably peaks sooner then someone who is perfectly healthy). Anyways, this athlete can go on and reaches his peak during the Olympics when he is already a professional athlete. What caused his success? The fact that his peak was higher then most other people, but more importantly, that he was told to keep on going. He got into a positive feedback loop. Everytime he got better, people told him that it was great and that he could be even better, if he kept on training, giving him a confidence boost that he could indeed do better if he trained more, so he trains more, gets better, and people told him again that he is doing great but that he could do better, etc.

The people who arent successful probably missed the positive feedback loop, thus not giving them the chance to improve themselves. And in a few cases, people might get into a negative feedback loop, where they are only told how much they suck, and every time they try to make it, the screw up because they are nervous or something, and again get told that they suck. I think I once read that the reason why African Americans tend to score lower on standardized IQ tests was because of the sheer stress they felt when they had to make one and tried to break the standard stereotype of African Americans being dumb. Thus they screwed up the test, get a low IQ score because of that, and reinforce the image of African Americans having low IQ's. To bad I cant remember where I read it though.
 

Kaze Araki

Libertarian Communist
#26
Survival instincts Kaze-dono. Animals don't operate via the mechanism of compassion or reason. It's only natural that a lioness would care for her offspring because it ensures the passing on of her own genes. She does not take care for her young because she loves them.
Intelligent animals are capable of both, hardly a human only characteristics.
[YOUTUBE]LzdTEeoyF7w[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE]ofjo26O0z_o[/YOUTUBE]
 

Core

Fascinating...
#27
Theres no such thing as equality. Period.

We all agree it looks beautiful on paper.. but the biggest example is the olympics.. if every single human was equal and was capable of the same things there would be only ONE category. This is in regards to Physical strength. If all men were equal we all have the exact same intelligence. If all men were equal there would be no such thing as dominance. If all men were equal.....
Its the IF that does it.

Now dont even try to attack that because its true. The only reason it looks good on paper is because it is another method of control :D
If all men are equal and desired the same things, same goals, same drive. We'd all be sipping iced tea's on mars by now.

The biggest factors are: Experience, Opportunity, Motivation and genetics.
Genetics is the Nature bit you guys were talking about and Experience+opportunity equals the nurture part.. motivation is the only thing that is completely independent and can transcend all but genetics.... And dont forget you dont need the other 3 if you have motivation. Genetics are simply the limit to what your body.. and your genetic makeup can achieve. Experience and Oppertunity... they are mere factors that contribute to your growth rate but without motivation they are irrelevant.

I dont have the mathmatical equation on hand.. and im too tired to look for it.. maybe tomorrow.
 

Kaze Araki

Libertarian Communist
#29
Unfortunately, equality as a philosophical stand, has nothing to do with either experience, opportunity, motivation or genetics. Equality simply means all men are equal in term of fundamental rights. Inequality on the other hand, is nothing more but an extension of our animal instinct.
 
#30
Rousseau would argue otherwise. There is no equality because inequality is natural. It is compassion and reason that make us human.
I'm sure we anime goers remember this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HqV03Jouzk

And obviously everyone remembers this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGhdX1SI3KY

Welcome to the kind of world Rousseau directly would/has contributed to.

I'm not saying there is no natural form of equality among people. I'm just saying absolute equality cannot realistically exist within all bounds. But it's more or less there throughout.
 
#32
Can't see your pics Cephal.
Fixed. The links are on the previous page.

Anywho, my point is that equality exists naturally to an extent and that comes in part because of the existence of society, civilization. Because of law and order. I'm not saying it exists everywhere. But in a proper society which isn't dictatorial or too dominated - people are equal in their rights, unequal in their means and potential.

The key to stress here is that equality exists because of rights. But that does not mean all people are capable or can maintain true capability. People come together in groups to forge equality. It is not formed without mutual cooperation and trust among people.