Equality the Bitter Illusion

Zero Phoenix

The Second Coming of Hazama
#1
HLS is in dire need of some variety and so I, ZERO PHOENIX have answered the call. Given that religious detractors deny the existence of God then existentially speaking our lives are not blessed with equal value. God created Man in His image. If there is no God however then man is simply another step in the evolutionary ladder and man as a genus is simply another type of animal. Equality does not exist in nature and as man is merely the offspring thereof, equality does not exist.


If equality does not exist then it is only natural that men who are better than others assert their dominance over the common herd. It is natural law that the smartest and strongest beasts occupy a higher level in the natural order. Man is not exempt from this simply because they are a different breed of beast so it stands to reason that Elitism is not only justified but natural.


Some men are born to be slaves just as some men are born inferior. This is not to say that a slave might be inferior because he is a slave. Rather, a slave is such because he is simply an inferior man. Individuals who lack the upward momentum to ascend the economic and social ladders can be seen as animals that lack the means to live in a natural environment. The inability to survive in its natural surroundings speaks of inferiority within the animal itself. With that said human beings judge others based on their standing. It stands to natural reason that individuals of low standing are for all intents and purposes, fundamentally inferior to their social superiors.


Some men are born to dominate. Others are born to be dominated. Following that reasoning if men are animals then each sect is like unto a pack which is dominated by an alpha male. In any group one stands alone and this single individual has a natural right to dominate the rest of the group. In the animal kingdom this is the alpha male. In the human kingdom this is the king, the president, or the dictator.


While I respect the ideology of Abraham Lincoln that, "All men are created equal," I also see the logic in the ideologies of Grotius, Hobbes, and Caligula in their assertion that equality does not exist in nature and given that all men are beasts no man is equal to another. [You might say that men are only equal relative to their inequality to one another.]

Don't like what I have to say? Don't care. My objective is not to pop Elitism as a natural practice because it hardly needs it. My aim is to review the contents of The Social Contract in an open discussion regarding equality. The battle between Grotius, Socrates, and Rousseau will be played out through us in HLS. Discuss.
 

noex1337

Emmie was here
#2
I find it contradictory that you are assuming God doesn't exist in this topic, yet you argue predestination. If God, Fate, or any higher power is nonexistant, then it's all a game of chance. While one may be born physically inferior, no one is born inferior from an intellectual, social or economic standpoint, that is just a result of decisions made by them and those who came before them. That's the same as saying dogs exist to be domesticated which is obviously false.
 

Zero Phoenix

The Second Coming of Hazama
#3
I find it contradictory that you are assuming God doesn't exist in this topic, yet you argue predestination. If God, Fate, or any higher power is nonexistant, then it's all a game of chance. While one may be born physically inferior, no one is born inferior from an intellectual, social or economic standpoint, that is just a result of decisions made by them and those who came before them. That's the same as saying dogs exist to be domesticated which is obviously false.

I can set my watch by how many times you miss the mark. The opening was meant to be rather controversial in order to spur discussion. The overall point of the topic is to discuss inequality as it relates to human civilization. I'm the only real Christian on this site but in order to make the topic more accessible to everyone, I opened the discussion with the principles an atheist, i.e., our general audience is likely to have.

Try to stop being so confrontational and focus on the discussion. Thanks.
 

Zero Phoenix

The Second Coming of Hazama
#7
compassion and reason are also observed in other animals
Survival instincts Kaze-dono. Animals don't operate via the mechanism of compassion or reason. It's only natural that a lioness would care for her offspring because it ensures the passing on of her own genes. She does not take care for her young because she loves them.
 

noex1337

Emmie was here
#8
I can set my watch by how many times you miss the mark. The opening was meant to be rather controversial in order to spur discussion. The overall point of the topic is to discuss inequality as it relates to human civilization. I'm the only real Christian on this site but in order to make the topic more accessible to everyone, I opened the discussion with the principles an atheist, i.e., our general audience is likely to have.

Try to stop being so confrontational and focus on the discussion. Thanks.
Equality exists, you're just downplaying it. The point is, the level of inequality that you are referring to is not natural.
 

Zero Phoenix

The Second Coming of Hazama
#9
Equality exists, you're just downplaying it. The point is, the level of inequality that you are referring to is not natural.
Strike two! You're really bad at this. I'm fully aware equality exists. Don't forget, between the two of us I'm the only one who actually is a Christian. I was reviewing the social contract and Rousseau had some very unkind words for Grotius, Hobbes, and even Socrates.

Grotius argued that might made right and if you had the power to do something you had moral law on your side. Thus, from the pov of Grotius slavery, pillaging, and other practices were fine. Grotius also believed that some people were born to dominate while others were born to be dominated. Rousseau also beleved that there was a natural inequality among people but he didn't go as far as Grotius did with regards to justifying might in every situation.

I respect the teachings of Rousseau and Socrates however they ran into one another head first. I figured I would open this discussion to address some of the concerns of Rousseau while giving proper attention to the views of his opponents.

My aim Noex, since it appears that I must explain everything to you, is to open up the topic of equality and inequality to everyone. My god you act as though your life is on the line. This is not a battle between you and I because whereas I'm trying to have a discussion about The Social Contract and the irreconcileable differences between Rousseau and Socrates, you want to play whose stick is bigger.

I'm fairly certain Kaze-dono and I have this so you can excuse yourself from these proceedings.
 

noex1337

Emmie was here
#10
Strike two! You're really bad at this. I'm fully aware equality exists. Don't forget, between the two of us I'm the only one who actually is a Christian. I was reviewing the social contract and Rousseau had some very unkind words for Grotius, Hobbes, and even Socrates.

Grotius argued that might made right and if you had the power to do something you had moral law on your side. Thus, from the pov of Grotius slavery, pillaging, and other practices were fine. Grotius also believed that some people were born to dominate while others were born to be dominated. Rousseau also beleved that there was a natural inequality among people but he didn't go as far as Grotius did with regards to justifying might in every situation.

I respect the teachings of Rousseau and Socrates however they ran into one another head first. I figured I would open this discussion to address some of the concerns of Rousseau while giving proper attention to the views of his opponents.

My aim Noex, since it appears that I must explain everything to you, is to open up the topic of equality and inequality to everyone. My god you act as though your life is on the line. This is not a battle between you and I because whereas I'm trying to have a discussion about The Social Contract and the irreconcileable differences between Rousseau and Socrates, you want to play whose stick is bigger.

I'm fairly certain Kaze-dono and I have this so you can excuse yourself from these proceedings.
You see apparitions of conflict where none exist. Inequalities such as disabilities are natural, and in the scenario defined by your opening post, completely justifiable. Once you start to consider socioeconomic statuses, the justification ceases since those do not quite exist in the natural world. Instead, they must be considered from an ethical standpoint.
 
#11
IMO the concept of equality and the natural want to preserve it is more due to the existence of morals and a conscience, not so much a God. I don't see how a world without a God can't generate humans who have morals and a conscience.

It's a pretty farfetched example, but look at the behaviours of some animal groups. When one of their members is left behind, they wait for it to catch up, or even go bak and support it. Indirectly they are perceiving each other as being "equal" enough that they should all go through a shared experience. These animals don't believe in a god, but the general sense of equality seems to be there.
 

noex1337

Emmie was here
#12
IMO the concept of equality and the natural want to preserve it is more due to the existence of morals and a conscience, not so much a God. I don't see how a world without a God can't generate humans who have morals and a conscience.

It's a pretty farfetched example, but look at the behaviours of some animal groups. When one of their members is left behind, they wait for it to catch up, or even go bak and support it. Indirectly they are perceiving each other as being "equal" enough that they should all go through a shared experience. These animals don't believe in a god, but the general sense of equality seems to be there.
I think that would have more to do with survival instincts than equality. Such animals survive in a herd, and so operates with a herd mentality. It's not unheard of however for weaker, injured, or crippled members of the herd to be left behind.

EDIT: I said herd/heard way to many times.
 
#13
noex1337 said:
I think that would have more to do with survival instincts than equality. Such animals survive in a herd, and so operates with a herd mentality. It's not unheard of however for weaker, injured, or crippled members of the herd to be left behind.

EDIT: I said herd/heard way to many times.
Yeah, which is why I said that it may have been a bit farfetched. Still, there's nothing to suggest that morals can't develop without a god.
 

Zero Phoenix

The Second Coming of Hazama
#14
You see apparitions of conflict where none exist. Inequalities such as disabilities are natural, and in the scenario defined by your opening post, completely justifiable. Once you start to consider socioeconomic statuses, the justification ceases since those do not quite exist in the natural world. Instead, they must be considered from an ethical standpoint.
Yay you finally got there. ;hello; That was a tough race.



I think that would have more to do with survival instincts than equality. Such animals survive in a herd, and so operates with a herd mentality. It's not unheard of however for weaker, injured, or crippled members of the herd to be left behind.
I tried to explain something of a sort to Kaze-dono. Animals are driven by survival instincts not compassion or reason.
 

noex1337

Emmie was here
#15
I think you're confusing morality and ethics, but that should be the subject of another topic altogether.

[MENTION=170]Zero Phoenix[/MENTION]: Now that you've gotten past the illusion of conflict, what is your opinion, seeing as we have differing views on the subject.
 

Pimp

Follower of kiyology
#16
Survival of the fittest....The strong live and the weak die. The strong eat the weak to survive..

But in truth everyone has something they are stronger at then the next person in line..It only depends on if they know how use what they are great with the survive.
So its more like the Smart live and the idiots die.

No such things as equality without brain washing.
 

Zero Phoenix

The Second Coming of Hazama
#17
@Zero Phoenix: Now that you've gotten past the illusion of conflict, what is your opinion, seeing as we have differing views on the subject.
Bye Noex. You're clearly not getting this.



Survival of the fittest....The strong live and the weak die. The strong eat the weak to survive..

But in truth everyone has something they are stronger at then the next person in line..It only depends on if they know how use what they are great with the survive.
So its more like the Smart live and the idiots die.

No such things as equality without brain washing.

"No such things as equality without brain washing," (Pimpd2331). Wow. Do you want to elaborate?
 

Pimp

Follower of kiyology
#18
You would have to set everyone's mindset to zero and teach them all the same commands and they cant have a single thought of their own...Once one has an original though they are automatically set apart from the others and would be labeled superior because people who live the zombie/Borg mind set would be unable to stop them.. So you would need to constantly reinforce a mass brainwashing so that free will could never be had.

Now i am not saying this is right i am saying its the only way to be equal in everyones mind.
 

noex1337

Emmie was here
#19
You would have to set everyone's mindset to zero and teach them all the same commands and they cant have a single thought of their own...Once one has an original though they are automatically set apart from the others and would be labeled superior because people who live the zombie/Borg mind set would be unable to stop them.. So you would need to constantly reinforce a mass brainwashing so that free will could never be had.

Now i am not saying this is right i am saying its the only way to be equal in everyones mind.
But that's not equality though, that's mass subjugation.