Building a better society

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
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Why does my justification for coming up with an alternative system of governance matter? Do you really need my justification to think its a good or a bad idea? Does it matter if Id justify it by saying I do not like this excessive focus on 'democracy' and giving power to 'the people' or if I said I came up with it because I had a lot of time to spare and liked the mental exercise it provided? Does that change the idea itself?

My justification is irrelevant. I presented an idea, discuss it, or ignore it if you dont feel like discussing it with me.
 

Kaze Araki

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My model is vague because it is basically a very general step by step implementation.
It can be elaborated in details once the scrutiny is more specific, up to its underlying philosophical thesis.

[MENTION=159]-lexus-[/MENTION]
Your justification is needed to scrutinize your model.
 

Denuo Prince

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Why does my justification for coming up with an alternative system of governance matter? Do you really need my justification to think its a good or a bad idea? Does it matter if Id justify it by saying I do not like this excessive focus on 'democracy' and giving power to 'the people' or if I said I came up with it because I had a lot of time to spare and liked the mental exercise it provided? Does that change the idea itself?

My justification is irrelevant. I presented an idea, discuss it, or ignore it if you dont feel like discussing it with me.
The peoples happiness is also a factor in a better society. This is why the focus is on democracy. People rather be mediocre but have power then great and be powerless.
 
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Perfection is a paradox to be perfect you have to be imperfect, the end.

An Utopia like children and sci-fi movies show, would end mankind. We would simply lose the basic reason/need to keep moving forward.

Not much needed to be changed today even if that is quite cold blooded to say. A few more long term solutions and some improvements in some areas in the world in the social structure and balance out some other things should suffice. We might think we stand above nature but we are dancing in her palm like the little unknowing brats we truly are.

I'm mostly here because peoples way to use perfection somehow annoys me. ^.^
 

-lexus-

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The peoples happiness is also a factor in a better society. This is why the focus is on democracy. People rather be mediocre but have power then great and be powerless.
Most people dont give a shit about power. Only when they feel they are threatened in their basic commodities they start to care. America, the beacon of western democracy tends to have a very poor voter turn out during their presidential elections. Why? Because people dont give a shit if they dont feel they are hit where it hurts. Only when they stand to loose something from it, they turn up and vote.

And why should the country be run by those that arent willing to work for it? Who arent willing to sacrifice some of their time for the community they are part of? Btmangan was right when he said I took it from Starship Troopers, I did. I think its correct in its assessment that only those who are willing to serve the country should be able to decide its course. The ones that just live for themselves, thats their choice, and I dont want to stand in their way, but I do not believe they should have a say in politics.
 

Denuo Prince

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Most people dont give a shit about power. Only when they feel they are threatened in their basic commodities they start to care. America, the beacon of western democracy tends to have a very poor voter turn out during their presidential elections. Why? Because people dont give a shit if they dont feel they are hit where it hurts. Only when they stand to loose something from it, they turn up and vote.
It is quite common for people to have something and not appreciate it until its gone. When its taken away from them they will riot and kill for it back.
And why should the country be run by those that arent willing to work for it? Who arent willing to sacrifice some of their time for the community they are part of? Btmangan was right when he said I took it from Starship Troopers, I did. I think its correct in its assessment that only those who are willing to serve the country should be able to decide its course. The ones that just live for themselves, thats their choice, and I dont want to stand in their way, but I do not believe they should have a say in politics.

Thats people. People are ignorant and foolish like that. But they nevertheless are still the main factor in a society. Because of this democracy is still looked at as the most desired form of government simply because it is more desirable for the people.
 

Cephal

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[MENTION=45]Kaze Araki[/MENTION] @-lexus- I will be taking some time to make an elaborate response. I'll get it done soon and post it so just continue on with the conversation. This post is just to acknowledge that I saw the mentions.
 

Canabary

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Perfection is a paradox to be perfect you have to be imperfect, the end.

An Utopia like children and sci-fi movies show, would end mankind. We would simply lose the basic reason/need to keep moving forward.

Not much needed to be changed today even if that is quite cold blooded to say. A few more long term solutions and some improvements in some areas in the world in the social structure and balance out some other things should suffice. We might think we stand above nature but we are dancing in her palm like the little unknowing brats we truly are.

I'm mostly here because peoples way to use perfection somehow annoys me. ^.^
I have yet to see an"utopia" where shit didn't hit the fan.
 

Chimer

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Perfection is a paradox to be perfect you have to be imperfect, the end.
Hmm ok... meaningless i think. ( nothing personal )

An Utopia like children and sci-fi movies show, would end mankind.
Oh really ?? i'm asking for evidences here

Not much needed to be changed today even if that is quite cold blooded to say. A few more long term solutions and some improvements in some areas in the world in the social structure and balance out some other things should suffice
hmmm wow cold blooded hmm ( lol ) ??? Please would you like to precise those "things" solutions and improvements and areas...

We might think we stand above nature but we are dancing in her palm like the little unknowing brats we truly are.
Hell yeah here i'm agree ^^
 
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Perfection is a paradox to be perfect you have to be imperfect, the end.

An Utopia like children and sci-fi movies show, would end mankind. We would simply lose the basic reason/need to keep moving forward.

Not much needed to be changed today even if that is quite cold blooded to say. A few more long term solutions and some improvements in some areas in the world in the social structure and balance out some other things should suffice. We might think we stand above nature but we are dancing in her palm like the little unknowing brats we truly are.

I'm mostly here because peoples way to use perfection somehow annoys me. ^.^
I'm sorry, but who in this thread has actually advocated for "perfection"? I have yet to see someone claim to have an idea for a "perfect society".

Also, can you elaborate further on your reforms? This thread is intended to analyze certain reforms and their affect upon society.

Also, you cannot think of a way to ensure that humanity continues to move forward even when in comfortable circumstances? Tis a problem to be overcome, not a certainty.
 
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Ah sorry will elaborate on why such an Utopia would be bad. Lol and in coldblooded i mean that hard ships and suffering is not something that can be removed it needs to stay so that we can continue to fight for it to be removed it's the journey that is important here not the goal.

So bad things with that kind of Utopia well. Many basic instincts would decrease in activity such as having kids, expand, improve, evolve and learn. Humans are lazy and comfortable in nature. So satisfying the basic needs would remove the larger reasons that keeps them moving. In an Utopia the wast majority would end up like consuming machines that lives a happy life where family, work and many such things slowly disappear. [MENTION=1300]Chimer[/MENTION]

Well reforms needed are things that will take years, decades or more to accomplish. Many who will be messy but in the end will contribute to making an Utopia.
We are talking about the reformation of the Middle east, the build up of Africa and the control of Asia. Though the need is simple for all of them. Knowledge and education not only in how things are done but in how things work. Long term solution mentality is what is needed in many places.
To do this you need to break some of the walls of Tradition and conservatism as they tend to limit ones views to the village one live in. So to speak.

The western world has it's own problem like the consumer life style that we currently live in and is now showing how unreliable it is. Although it makes things go round we need to take it down a few notches. Sadly my knowledge in that area is severely lacking but i do hope you know what i am getting at.

As for making humanity move forward in comfortable circumstances. Well you got me there i guess a big factor could be curiosity. A need to know things and to explore. problem would be how to make the masses take an interest to it. In this Utopia we would have to create some kind of pillar/view in society that knowledge is important a bit like how people like bands it's a great thing that draws a lot of people and pretty much everyone listens to it. the trouble would be Laziness there and i honestly can't come up with anything so i give you the ball again [MENTION=3035]Btmangan[/MENTION] :huh:

(have understanding with me im just getting back to the debate world again some things will take a while before i get back into shape ^^; *like getting my thoughts in order again <.<*)
 
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(have understanding with me im just getting back to the debate world again some things will take a while before i get back into shape ^^; *like getting my thoughts in order again <.<*)
Of course. I'm sorry if I came off as rude. It's just that my poor thread has been spammed very badly and I wasn't clear that I wanted this thread to mostly discuss reforms. Thank you for replying!

Once again, sorry if I come off as rude. I was always trained to approach debates without mercy. :coool:

Ah sorry will elaborate on why such an Utopia would be bad. Lol and in coldblooded i mean that hard ships and suffering is not something that can be removed it needs to stay so that we can continue to fight for it to be removed it's the journey that is important here not the goal.

So bad things with that kind of Utopia well. Many basic instincts would decrease in activity such as having kids, expand, improve, evolve and learn. Humans are lazy and comfortable in nature. So satisfying the basic needs would remove the larger reasons that keeps them moving. In an Utopia the wast majority would end up like consuming machines that lives a happy life where family, work and many such things slowly disappear. [MENTION=1300]Chimer[/MENTION]
You make an excellent point.

In fact, this question bothered me for quite a long time.

"If making society more comfortable for people causes them to become more lazy. Then how does one create a better society without the people within that society becoming lazy!"

Another huge problem: evolution begins to backslide. Instead of rewarding people with ideal traits such as intelligence or moral character, in comfortable societies, evolution simply rewards those who breed the most. That is an upsetting conclusion.

But after hours of meditation, I came up with solution for that problem: Create artificial struggle.

That is why I proposed a rigorous educational system where children are fed based upon how well they preform in physical training, scholastic skills, and the arts. It would be balanced so that an average of 10% of children would starve to death in their education which would stretch from the age of five to sixteen.

In such a system, individuals are trained to become strong, competitive, and hardworking, and evolution is still effectively controlled. Children are taught the strong lesson "If I don't preform, I don't eat", which makes success and hard work core to their ethos.

Is such a system cruel? Of course. But it ensures continued progress without mankind becoming too lazy or comfortable.

The western world has it's own problem like the consumer life style that we currently live in and is now showing how unreliable it is. Although it makes things go round we need to take it down a few notches. Sadly my knowledge in that area is severely lacking but i do hope you know what i am getting at.
If you mean that capitalism is out of control, then yeah, we agree.
 

Chimer

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Humans are lazy and comfortable in nature.
@Silvir => i don't thing human is lazy by nature... if so, we couldn't have survive 5 thousand years. ... I think the progress make us more and more lazy. Now if you need to do 200 meters to buy bread, you just take your car oO... ( example )
About the comfort... well let's just say that every animal look for a bit a comfort. But once again More evoluate we are and more comfort we want ( thanks to IKEA for saving us... ) consomation system make us want things we absolutely don't need...

Thanks for the precision and wb in the debate activity...
 

-lexus-

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Another huge problem: evolution begins to backslide. Instead of rewarding people with ideal traits such as intelligence or moral character, in comfortable societies, evolution simply rewards those who breed the most. That is an upsetting conclusion.
Both moral character and intelligence are only in the smallest way affected by your genes, causing evolution to be totally irrelevant in its case. Intelligence is decided by upbringing. Why do you think Asian people generally score higher on standardized tests? Is it because their genes make them smarter? No, they score higher because they are pushed by their parents to reach their limits. Furthermore, the average IQ has been steadily rising for the last few decades, further countering your assumption that evolution does not reward intelligence.

And if you look at if from a historical perspective, you will only find more proof of this. In the past, the smart people, the great philosophers generally came from wealthy families. Why where they smart and achieved great intellectual achievements? Because all rich people had smart genes? No, rich people could afford an education for their kids. Peasants on the other hand, could not, so all they created was more peasant kids. Then the industrial revolution came along, peasants became unwanted, schooling became mandatory and accessible for all, and you suddenly see that people who come from a family of peasants start to achieve more on the intellectual field as well.

Having a system that kills off children because they are to weak, stupid or slow is immoral and on top of that, counter productive. You need people to do the shitty jobs like picking up garbage and cleaning up hallways. If everyone where to be 'smart' no one would go for those jobs.

On top of that, mankind is not inherently lazy. We dont like unnecessary work, and we love effectiveness. All our progress, all our inventions, have not be done to make our lives easier, so that we could sit back under a tree and do nothing. No, it was all done so that we could be more effective, so that we could do more in less time. Machines? Not because we dont like doing manual labor, but because machines can do it faster and more effective then humans, freeing time for us to more. Better chairs? Not because we like to sit on our ass that much, but sitting comfortably simply increases productivity.
 
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Both moral character and intelligence are only in the smallest way affected by your genes, causing evolution to be totally irrelevant in its case. Intelligence is decided by upbringing. Why do you think Asian people generally score higher on standardized tests? Is it because their genes make them smarter? No, they score higher because they are pushed by their parents to reach their limits. Furthermore, the average IQ has been steadily rising for the last few decades, further countering your assumption that evolution does not reward intelligence.
Interesting points. I agree.

And if you look at if from a historical perspective, you will only find more proof of this. In the past, the smart people, the great philosophers generally came from wealthy families. Why where they smart and achieved great intellectual achievements? Because all rich people had smart genes? No, rich people could afford an education for their kids. Peasants on the other hand, could not, so all they created was more peasant kids. Then the industrial revolution came along, peasants became unwanted, schooling became mandatory and accessible for all, and you suddenly see that people who come from a family of peasants start to achieve more on the intellectual field as well.
Also true. As I always like to say. "Some of the most philisophically enlightened people were slave holders." Because if you think about it, what other kind of person could afford to sit around all day and do nothing?

Having a system that kills off children because they are to weak, stupid or slow is immoral and on top of that, counter productive. You need people to do the shitty jobs like picking up garbage and cleaning up hallways. If everyone where to be 'smart' no one would go for those jobs.
A third very important point. If I structured society where everyone was in a race to the top, who would do the shitty jobs? Still, that's not irreparable. It'd be more than possible for there to be a drafting system.

On top of that, mankind is not inherently lazy. We dont like unnecessary work, and we love effectiveness. All our progress, all our inventions, have not be done to make our lives easier, so that we could sit back under a tree and do nothing. No, it was all done so that we could be more effective, so that we could do more in less time. Machines? Not because we dont like doing manual labor, but because machines can do it faster and more effective then humans, freeing time for us to more. Better chairs? Not because we like to sit on our ass that much, but sitting comfortably simply increases productivity.
I loved your critique up until this point. Generally, humans will do the least amount of work possible. The less adversity you give them, the more passive they become.
 

-lexus-

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A third very important point. If I structured society where everyone was in a race to the top, who would do the shitty jobs? Still, that's not irreparable. It'd be more than possible for there to be a drafting system.
As in randomly picking people to do the shitty jobs? That wouldnt be fair now would it? And it would give a very bad message to people. No matter how good they are, they might end up somewhere shitty anyways.

I loved your critique up until this point. Generally, humans will do the least amount of work possible. The less adversity you give them, the more passive they become.
I disagree. If we are actually lazy by nature, we would have been stuck on a fertile plane, content being peasants who produce their own food. We would be happy living under an Anarchist system, and we wouldnt accept working for some king or emperor, or be slaves for someone else. We wouldnt move to inhospitable parts of this world. However, we do go to inhospitable parts of this world and we thrive there. We do work for kings and emperors, and we only increased the government, made it far more complex in order to meet the demands of an increasingly complex social structure. We build cities and we expand them everywhere. We invent machines, for the only purpose of increasing efficiency and productivity. One of the most important aims of every government (except Butan) on this world is to realize an increase in economic output (GDP). Or to quote Kennedy at the height of the American century:

We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too.

Humans are by nature competitive, curious and expansive. Humans get very bored when they do nothing, and everyone knows that boredom is a terrible thing to be.


Our society is already extremely competitive. Maybe not competitive as in competing against other people, but it certainly demands a lot from the average person if (s)he wants to succeed or reach something in his/her life. Besides, I do not like the idea of people being used as tools for the state to reach certain objectives. It already happened that humans are now seen as simple expendable resources used to fuel the motor of our economy. Intensifying this view much further could cause a self destructive tendency of people simply breaking under the increasing pressure, either leading to increasingly more mental health problems (burn outs, depressions, suicides, like America hasnt enough of that already) or an increasing movement of people wanting the exact opposite of what the system demands of them: more free time, less pressure, an increased focus on other things then just productivity, etc.