Building a better society

Denuo Prince

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#61
Utopia is Greek for "Nowhere".

Technically, it is a reference to an unattainable perfect ideal. So if you want to be literal, creating Utopia is impossible /endthread.

But practically (and historically), Utopian movements and groups attempted to build a superior societal structure on the basis of fundamental changes in the society. I didn't think people would nitpick the term so much. . .

You should elaborate more when creating a thread my friend.
 

noex1337

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#62
To be factual I have never excluding the last post even said improving. My words have always been about Utopia near perfection and terms along those lines. Their will be a net gain as that is how improvement is created. But that distribution will limit how far society can go nowhere near Utopia or anything close to it.
So then if society is improving, then what is preventing it from getting close to utopia?
 

Denuo Prince

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#66
While I won't be one to argue the state of our natural resources, who's to say our needs our "unlimited"?
We want everything. That is a sense can be called our unlimited desires. It totally conflicts with our need to distribute resources. Meaning we are never truly satisfied and there is always an aspect of our lives that we want better.
 

noex1337

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#67
I doubt the premise is as much about satisfying all the wanton desires of every single person, as it is about increasing the overall "happiness" of the population.
 

Denuo Prince

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#68
I doubt the premise is as much about satisfying all the wanton desires of every single person, as it is about increasing the overall "happiness" of the population.
This isnt one persons desire but society's desire. It isn't easy to tell a whole society to stop trying to increase their wealth, protection, innovation , etc. and just to live with what you got.
 

noex1337

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#71
Increase the happiness of the majority? How do you increase happiness?
That's the problem in an of itself. I don't know all the answers, but check my post a couple pages back if you want my thoughts on the matter. @Denou Prince.
 

Denuo Prince

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#72
It is a fools dream. Unless you use mind control and allot of resources you can not make the majority happy . And if you could the minority would erupt out of anger.
 

noex1337

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#73
It is a fools dream. Unless you use mind control and allot of resources you can not make the majority happy . And if you could the minority would erupt out of anger.
You realize that the majority are those in poverty right? They're needs and wants are not as excessive as most.
 

Denuo Prince

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#74
And the minority would be the rich who hold more then 85-90 % or even more of the wealth in the country. Unless their getting something they are not going to like spending all resources on the middle and lower class.

Also Poverty stricken familys aren't the only people not happy.Middle class family are not only just as likely to be unhappy but are higher in population. Middle class has the highest population of all classes.

And Rich people can be even more unhappy. Money goes hand in hand with problems after all.
 

noex1337

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#75
Also Poverty stricken familys aren't the only people not happy.Middle class family are not only just as likely to be unhappy but are higher in population. Middle class has the highest population of all classes.

And Rich people can be even more unhappy. Money goes hand in hand with problems after all.
I suppose you do have a point. But then what is your solution? Sit back and do nothing?
 

-lexus-

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#77
I guess I can post my own model here now.

First of all, were gonna cut back the amount of voters. Only those who served for a specific amount of time at some public space will get the ability to vote. With public space I mean army, police, fire department, school, hospital, street cleaner, garbage collector, etc. Only those willing to serve should be allowed any say in whats gonna happen next. Furthermore, these people get extra schooling in the way the system works. After they have served, they can get access to civil administration jobs, get higher ranks in the army, etc or they can go to the private sector and try to make a fortune. Their choice. Furthermore, we militarize the public sector in the sense that we instate ranks, and where promotion is only possible if you deserve it because youre skilled enough for it. A little meritocracy never hurt anyone.

The government itself shall consist of one president for life, chosen from a select group of individuals who have achieved a high enough rank to be eligible for president, and a public prime minister that shall serve for 6 years. He will be elected democratically by the people who have the right to vote.

The government will take the responsibility over the army, infrastructure, banking system, schools and all industries deemed vital for state security. In all these systems the government will be the major share holder and it shall force each of these companies to maintain certain standards of business practice that are deemed necessary to secure worker and environmental health. Aside from the fact that the government is the major share holder and will have a say in long term business strategies, these companies are otherwise left to specialists to be run in the most efficient way possible and making a profit will be an aim.

All non vital industries are placed under the private sector where they can run their business pretty much as they see fit, within the framework of the law of course. There will be a charter that deals with certain inspection points. Scoring high on this charter will grant such companies tax bonuses and cheaper loans from the banks, while scoring low will result in higher interests rates and heavier taxing.

Jury duty will be stopped and replaced with a panel of judges.

Education will be improved through the change of focus on certain aspects in education.

The prison system will be reformed. All sentences that go over a certain amount of years of jail will be changed in the death penalty. The three strikes system will be abolished. Smaller crimes will no longer be punished by jail time but through forced community service. Inmates will receive more luxuries while time to socially interact with other inmates will be decreased. Luxuries include access to porn, access to a closed internet system and pre approved video games.


credit where its due, most of this was developed by [MENTION=1207]Cephal[/MENTION] and me. I havent included everything either because I forgot them or because Im not sure I agree on it myself.
 

Kaze Araki

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#78
The lack of agreeable criteria for what considered as improvements makes it impossible for me to scrutinize anything.
Without them, even the cult of Jim Jones can be considered as a wonderful model.
 

Canabary

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#79
I guess I can post my own model here now.

First of all, were gonna cut back the amount of voters. Only those who served for a specific amount of time at some public space will get the ability to vote. With public space I mean army, police, fire department, school, hospital, street cleaner, garbage collector, etc. Only those willing to serve should be allowed any say in whats gonna happen next. Furthermore, these people get extra schooling in the way the system works. After they have served, they can get access to civil administration jobs, get higher ranks in the army, etc or they can go to the private sector and try to make a fortune. Their choice. Furthermore, we militarize the public sector in the sense that we instate ranks, and where promotion is only possible if you deserve it because youre skilled enough for it. A little meritocracy never hurt anyone.

The government itself shall consist of one president for life, chosen from a select group of individuals who have achieved a high enough rank to be eligible for president, and a public prime minister that shall serve for 6 years. He will be elected democratically by the people who have the right to vote.

The government will take the responsibility over the army, infrastructure, banking system, schools and all industries deemed vital for state security. In all these systems the government will be the major share holder and it shall force each of these companies to maintain certain standards of business practice that are deemed necessary to secure worker and environmental health. Aside from the fact that the government is the major share holder and will have a say in long term business strategies, these companies are otherwise left to specialists to be run in the most efficient way possible and making a profit will be an aim.

All non vital industries are placed under the private sector where they can run their business pretty much as they see fit, within the framework of the law of course. There will be a charter that deals with certain inspection points. Scoring high on this charter will grant such companies tax bonuses and cheaper loans from the banks, while scoring low will result in higher interests rates and heavier taxing.

Jury duty will be stopped and replaced with a panel of judges.

Education will be improved through the change of focus on certain aspects in education.

The prison system will be reformed. All sentences that go over a certain amount of years of jail will be changed in the death penalty. The three strikes system will be abolished. Smaller crimes will no longer be punished by jail time but through forced community service. Inmates will receive more luxuries while time to socially interact with other inmates will be decreased. Luxuries include access to porn, access to a closed internet system and pre approved video games.


credit where its due, most of this was developed by [MENTION=1207]Cephal[/MENTION] and me. I havent included everything either because I forgot them or because Im not sure I agree on it myself.
Your proposals break with almost all modern advancements and leave a lot of power and potential for abuse in the hands of the "cultural elite", it's built on many principles you'd see in the dark ages. Not saying I disagree with all of it, but the potential for abuse is massive.
 
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#80
I guess I can post my own model here now.

First of all, were gonna cut back the amount of voters. Only those who served for a specific amount of time at some public space will get the ability to vote. With public space I mean army, police, fire department, school, hospital, street cleaner, garbage collector, etc. Only those willing to serve should be allowed any say in whats gonna happen next. Furthermore, these people get extra schooling in the way the system works. After they have served, they can get access to civil administration jobs, get higher ranks in the army, etc or they can go to the private sector and try to make a fortune. Their choice. Furthermore, we militarize the public sector in the sense that we instate ranks, and where promotion is only possible if you deserve it because youre skilled enough for it. A little meritocracy never hurt anyone.
Reminds me of the Republican Roman model mixed in with a bit of Starship Troopers.

An interesting proposition.

The government itself shall consist of one president for life, chosen from a select group of individuals who have achieved a high enough rank to be eligible for president, and a public prime minister that shall serve for 6 years. He will be elected democratically by the people who have the right to vote.
For life?

The advantage is that he doesn't need to pander for his own reelection.

Disadvantage is that in lifetime reigns, the flaws of the particular ruler become pronounced. I also anticipate that the "Select group" would seek to abuse their power as electors in order to strengthen their own position.

The government will take the responsibility over the army, infrastructure, banking system, schools and all industries deemed vital for state security. In all these systems the government will be the major share holder and it shall force each of these companies to maintain certain standards of business practice that are deemed necessary to secure worker and environmental health. Aside from the fact that the government is the major share holder and will have a say in long term business strategies, these companies are otherwise left to specialists to be run in the most efficient way possible and making a profit will be an aim.
Not to parrot free market assholes, but having Government take over banking sounds like a bad idea. Mixes up finance w/ politics in a bad way.

There will be a charter that deals with certain inspection points. Scoring high on this charter will grant such companies tax bonuses and cheaper loans from the banks, while scoring low will result in higher interests rates and heavier taxing.
You'd, of course, need to institute a means to prevent corruption.

Jury duty will be stopped and replaced with a panel of judges.
Ouch

The prison system will be reformed. All sentences that go over a certain amount of years of jail will be changed in the death penalty. The three strikes system will be abolished. Smaller crimes will no longer be punished by jail time but through forced community service. Inmates will receive more luxuries while time to socially interact with other inmates will be decreased. Luxuries include access to porn, access to a closed internet system and pre approved video games.
Love the bold, don't love the underlined.

We need to ensure that Prison doesn't rock.

The lack of agreeable criteria for what considered as improvements makes it impossible for me to scrutinize anything.
Without them, even the cult of Jim Jones can be considered as a wonderful model.
Utopia doesn't need an agreeable criteria. Utopia's are generally created in order to address a particular problem that a group or leader has with societal organization.

The Utopia is a deviation from the standard model which attempts to fix that particular problem. It is either effective or ineffective in that end.