The longingness for bondage.

[Arachna]

Oh but that is the point isn't it? XD We as in humans. Restrict ourselfs. By rules and regulations. Personal freedom is replaced by "Safety" first. Or other priority's.

Lexy we choose our gouverment, Right? By a majority of votes. It is still a "rule" we obey? And meh. Money makes the wordd go round.Doesn't it? You still need to go buy food. Or clothes. Or any other thing you "need".

 

[Rascal]

Oh but that is the point isn't it? XD We as in humans. Restrict ourselfs. By rules and regulations. Personal freedom is replaced by "Safety" first. Or other priority's. Lexy we choose our gouverment, Right? By a majority of votes. It is still a "rule" we obey? And meh. Money makes the wordd go round.Doesn't it? You still need to go buy food. Or clothes. Or any other thing you "need".

in that case i must unfortunately agree with you :sigh: i want a debate

I didnt make any definitions. I was just responding to what you claimed. And in the end, society does decide where your freedom ends. Its society that makes up the laws right? Isnt it society that decided that getting murdered in your sleep was a bad idea? And isnt it society that has decided that discriminating against people based on race, sex and religion is a stupid thing to do? Your freedom goes as far as society says it can go.

im pretty sure i decided on my own i didnt wanna get murdered D: and that i dont wanna be discriminated against.... but meh.... point is... now you're agreeing with me on how freedom doesnt include those things =__= because of the bonds of laws in society =___= ... where'd ur argument go?

 

[-lexus-]

Oh but that is the point isn't it? XD We as in humans. Restrict ourselfs. By rules and regulations. Personal freedom is replaced by "Safety" first. Or other priority's.

Lexy we choose our gouverment, Right? By a majority of votes. It is still a "rule" we obey? And meh. Money makes the wordd go round.Doesn't it? You still need to go buy food. Or clothes. Or any other thing you "need".

Or you could vote a dictator in power. Democracy simply best ensures freedom because it requires a whole bunch of freedoms to work correctly. Dictators, kings, presidents for life, emperors, etc, they need your freedoms, nor do they want them, because they operate on the premise that they are the most competent. Competition for them means a potential source of instability, and thus a threat. Look at Stalin and how he executed even people who would support him to the end, simply because they might eclipse him in popularity and general competence. Democracy works because it has some measure of competition and instability build into it. Because there are relatively few rules build into the way it works.

And yes, you need to buy food and clothes. However, in a capitalistic system, you have a choice. You can choose to buy fewer clothes of the more expensive brand of which you know they produce their clothes using fair prices, etc, or you can choose to buy clothes from the company that produces them in sweatshops. You have a choice, thus you have a freedom to decide what you support. Do you support fair wages or do you support sweatshops, its all up to you.

im pretty sure i decided on my own i didnt wanna get murdered D: and that i dont wanna be discriminated against.... but meh.... point is... now you're agreeing with me on how freedom doesnt include those things =__= because of the bonds of laws in society =___= ... where'd ur argument go?

That was my argument all along O.O

 

[Kaze Araki]

On most occasion, I usually explore the notion of "freedom" from the political philosophy perspective and by using a different yet interchangeable term called "liberty". But in this instance, still fascinated by Freud, I instead chose to dig even deeper and arrived at a more basic definition of freedom;

the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action
​

This more psychological approach is hinted in the title of the thread and in the opening post; the point being is to show that despite freedom being desired upon by many, paradoxically enough - what they truly desire is actually; bondage.


Needless to say, freedom would still derive itself from desire which ultimately can be traced down back to the primitive selfish unconscious instinct. One desire to fly, but one is constrained by the gravity. Yet, if gravity is no more, then one loose the right for a firm feet to the ground. The paradox lies in the fact that "the longingness for freedom" is no more different from "the longingness for bondage", for freedom (in term of desire) is bondage.

 

[Core]

Hmm I guess my point was missed. Let me try again.

The only way to truly be free is to be able to do anything, go anywhere. But I am guessing no one here can.

If I asked anyone here to pick their nose.. some might or to fart.. well some might again just to prove a point.

But if asked, no one here would, strip naked and walk around like that outside all day on a very hot day.
But why? the difference between wearing and not wearing a bathing suit is very small. Why cant anyone here simply adhere to a simple question?
Is it because you think you're free? or is it because you are not free? You are shackled by the bondage of society, morality and ethics. Alot of which rules are completely unimportant. Yea yea the basics for not MURRDERING and NOT STEALING supposedly apply. but 99% of it is garbage.

All used to clog up you mind and act as a normal as the rest. The way you think, breathe, talk and walk.

But then again. What can I say. Most of you dont believe that you are not in control. And I believe thats the warden. The ultimate prison. If you think you can change, you never have to. If you think you can do something, you never have to prove it.

But the sad truth of it all is that those that can... DO and those that cant.. DONT.
Talk all you like, rationalize all you want but you cannot beat yourself, if you cannot challenge yourself.

[MENTION=45]Kaze Araki[/MENTION] thats not entirely wrong but dont approach freedom as a human philosophy(desire). Approach it as a fact. You get more interesting results.

 

[Silvir]

I don't think Freedom can be seen in desire or as a thing you achieve. Freedom is a feeling the rest is just propaganda from each side to reach the people they want to join them or envy them.
When you feel free and you feel that life is going well then you are free.
Meaning freedom is just as much an illusion as it is real.

(not sure this makes much sense i feel somewhat......limited when writing these kind of things. Im better at talking )

 

[Core]

I don't think Freedom can be seen in desire or as a thing you achieve. Freedom is a feeling the rest is just propaganda from each side to reach the people they want to join them or envy them.
When you feel free and you feel that life is going well then you are free.
Meaning freedom is just as much an illusion as it is real.

(not sure this makes much sense i feel somewhat......limited when writing these kind of things. Im better at talking )

No that was quite alright I used to have that.. I think too much and thus speech is the only thing that feels like it can keep up but even that is too slow. But the tip is.. Sound it out, you look silly doing it but who's gonna see .

This is why I told kaze not to stray too far to the -desire- thing. Dream ok.. but desire is overstating it. Besides it much funnier as a fact

I believe however you are both saying the same thing. The last sentence made no sense in the context though Something cant be as real as its illusion without being an illusion created by reality. Which means chasing after freedom is just another way of being controlled

@Silvir Hope you stick around <3

 

[-lexus-]

But if asked, no one here would, strip naked and walk around like that outside all day on a very hot day.
But why? the difference between wearing and not wearing a bathing suit is very small. Why cant anyone here simply adhere to a simple question?
Is it because you think you're free? or is it because you are not free? You are shackled by the bondage of society, morality and ethics. Alot of which rules are completely unimportant. Yea yea the basics for not MURRDERING and NOT STEALING supposedly apply. but 99% of it is garbage.

oh really? 99% is garbage? Prove it. Yeah, I know there are some silly laws, but most of them do make sense and serve a good purpose.

 

[Kaze Araki]

[MENTION=1543]Core[/MENTION]
But what is a "fact" but mere observable empirical evidence.
It lack a motivation that can correlate it with "freedom".
"Freedom" itself is not a "fact", it is a state of consciousness.

 

[Hadriel]

Personally I think that there is no such thing as freedom, because all our actions have bonds (defined as anything that hinders freedom) on them. Even if it is not a tangible physical bond, other bonds such as social standards and one's own morals and ethics exist, and these environmental forces do influence our actions, meaning that there is no freedom. However, I do know defining freedom as "to be able to do whatever you want" allows us to argue that morals are not a form of bond because morals are individually dictated. My answer would be that there is no technical freedom, but constitutional freedom, whether it be by laws or morals or anything else. To put it analogically, it's like playing a sandbox game. You're free to do anything you want in the game world, but you're still bounded by the game.

 

[Silvir]

:huuh: Well if you look at todays Media, Internet and our awesomely working Democracy doesn't that make it so?
We all think we are all running for freedom without knowing that it is exactly what they want us to. While they do what they think is right.
Though i could be completely wrong here my knowledge does not stretch far enough for me to be sure.

 

[Denuo Prince]

:huuh: Well if you look at todays Media, Internet and our awesomely working Democracy doesn't that make it so?
We all think we are all running for freedom without knowing that it is exactly what they want us to. While they do what they think is right.
Though i could be completely wrong here my knowledge does not stretch far enough for me to be sure.

Either choice you make its going to be what someone wants....whether its what another person wants or not shouldn't bear weight on it being a free choice.

 

[Silvir]

But their actions to prevent or encourage it can make all the difference. So what they want can bear a quite heavy weight on the free choice, especially when you are only given the illusion of it :/

 

[Denuo Prince]

By that logic free choices don't exist if any influence can halt it from being free.

 

[Silvir]

hm that would depend i like to drink Coke and so when i get to chose between different drinks i chose that because i like it. Now the question is was it a free choice because i chose the Coke instead of the fanta just because i like it. Or was it not a free choice because i let my desire for the taste of the coke chose for me ??

 

[Denuo Prince]

I don't see how the word depend fits in there. But you implied yourself that an outside factor changed it from being a free choice so just use that logic in your examples and come to an answer.

 

[Silvir]

hm....>.< i just learned that trying to think anything to complex 5:40 am is a bit above my above my own ability.

It depends because what if i one day decided to not let my desire chose but instead thought that today i'll take apple juice instead then i made a free choice. There are so many influences interacting with the mind constantly that you can never know when it is a free choice or an influence. I can't really come up to an answer since even if you try to run the logic one way you will sooner or later find a dead end and have to start over. And my psychology knowledge is amateur level so i don't know enough about independent thought patterns and all that researchy stuff :/

...sorry if this is messy i have a bad habit of approaching from both sides sometimes _@: