"TSA will grope less children"

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
#41
Suppose you are the leader of a country. You could be a president, dictator, king, whatever you see fit to call yourself for the sake of the argument. Now, you are in a situation wherein 3/4 world despise your nation. You have the means to make allies out of some of them but not all of them. Given that you cannot be friends with everyone do you: A) Continue to seek peaceful co-existence where none will ever be found or B) Use every means in your military to destroy those countries that refuse to co-exist with you.

I'm curious.
Option A and B seem like extremes. One is only through peace and the other seems like only through war.

Where is option C) Make strategic alliances with some, and try to maintain peace with the rest by having bigger guns then them or make it worth their while economically to have a peaceful relationship with me.

And if they attack me, fight back and win the war (by having the bigger guns). Then, ask them to come back to negotiate some manner of deal that decreases the chance that I have to fight them and they can avoid another humiliating defeat at my hands. History has shown this to be the most effective method. At least in Europe.

Unless this is what you meant with option B.
 
#42
That is put a bit to simple Zero. Politics is a game of power, Allies, enemies, deceiving and and many other factors to count in nothing is as simple as put here.

Personally i would gain as many allies as possible and create a power play; then from there cause a status quo, from where i could then work to change the rules and turn as many things as possible to my own benefit. Also i would accept that not everyone will like me and so i would make sure they in that case will have to accept that fearing me is part of disliking and working against me. I prefer to think in the long run short term solutions are only a waste of time.
 

Zero Phoenix

The Second Coming of Hazama
#43
Option A and B seem like extremes. One is only through peace and the other seems like only through war.

Where is option C) Make strategic alliances with some, and try to maintain peace with the rest by having bigger guns then them or make it worth their while economically to have a peaceful relationship with me.

And if they attack me, fight back and win the war (by having the bigger guns). Then, ask them to come back to negotiate some manner of deal that decreases the chance that I have to fight them and they can avoid another humiliating defeat at my hands. History has shown this to be the most effective method. At least in Europe.

Unless this is what you meant with option B.
That's option A (and it's what we're doing in the Middle East). It's more or less the same-thing. Any trick, any backdoor, any deal you're trying to use is the same as trying make peace with a country that will never be peaceful with you. Our, having bigger guns than the Middle East for example is "peace until they catch up to us." It's not actual peace, it's just a way for us to stall, to waste time, to talk and try to convince them to make peace but that is a day that will never come. Our "peace" lasts only until a side that is willing to use their gun, gets a bigger gun than ours. It is temporary and as such, not real peace.



That is put a bit to simple Zero. Politics is a game of power, Allies, enemies, deceiving and and many other factors to count in nothing is as simple as put here.

Personally i would gain as many allies as possible and create a power play; then from there cause a status quo, from where i could then work to change the rules and turn as many things as possible to my own benefit. Also i would accept that not everyone will like me and so i would make sure they in that case will have to accept that fearing me is part of disliking and working against me. I prefer to think in the long run short term solutions are only a waste of time.
You sort of missed the point. I'm not dising you simply making an observation. This is the same situation that the U.S. is facing with the Middle East. Everything you and Lexus are suggesting are either methods that the U.S. has used already or are currently employing and the west still lives in fear of the middle east. Why? Because nothing short of the west's destruction will satisfy them. You can't make friends with someone whose raison d'tre is to put a bullet in your head.

So, given that your country is at stake, given that you have to think about what is "most likely" to occur what decision will you make? Will you continue to seek peace with a nation whose drive is to wipe your country off the map, or will you get them before they get you?
 

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
#44
That's option A. It's more or less the same-thing. Any trick, any backdoor, any deal you're trying to use is the same as trying make peace with a country that will never be peaceful with you. Our, having bigger guns than the Middle East for example is "peace until they catch up to us." It's not actual peace, it's just a way for us to stall, to waste time, to talk and try to convince them to make peace but that is a day that will never come. Our "peace" lasts only until a side that is willing to use their gun, gets a bigger gun than ours. It is temporary and as such, not real peace.
In which case there is no real peace anyways. There will always be war, even if you try to destroy a country. I mean, look at the outcome of the first World War. France and England tried to get back at Germany, by taking away much of its military, an important economic area, and giving them ridiculous fines. 22 years later Germany once again crushed France under its heel.

Then the second world war ended, and Germany was given a chance to rebuild and resume normal relations with the rest of Europe. Now they are one of the best performing countries in Europe. Same could be said for France after the allies defeated Napoleon. They allowed France to take part in the negotiations in Vienna, and they ensured France wouldnt be utterly destroyed. For next century France also became an invaluable part of Europe.

If you want to deal with hostile countries for good, you need to wait until they attack you, and then crush their military. But afterwards, you have to give them a chance to rebuild and resume a normal peaceful relationship with you and the rest of the world. That way you show them that fighting you is pointless, but at the same time they will be thankful to you because you spared them. Unless you really want to systematically murder everything inside a country, but thats a waste of resources and will only cause more people to dislike or hate you.


EDIT: just to quickly respond to what you said to Silvir, the west fears the middle east because some politicians and media outlets have been creating fears that are entirely based on bullshit. Not the entire middle east is out to get us. Not all muslims want the Shaira introduced all over the world. And the extremists are only a small part. If anything, the west has been generalizing its fears for a very small group on every muslim.
 
#45
In which case there is no real peace anyways. There will always be war, even if you try to destroy a country. I mean, look at the outcome of the first World War. France and England tried to get back at Germany, by taking away much of its military, an important economic area, and giving them ridiculous fines. 22 years later Germany once again crushed France under its heel.

Then the second world war ended, and Germany was given a chance to rebuild and resume normal relations with the rest of Europe. Now they are one of the best performing countries in Europe. Same could be said for France after the allies defeated Napoleon. They allowed France to take part in the negotiations in Vienna, and they ensured France wouldnt be utterly destroyed. For next century France also became an invaluable part of Europe.

If you want to deal with hostile countries for good, you need to wait until they attack you, and then crush their military. But afterwards, you have to give them a chance to rebuild and resume a normal peaceful relationship with you and the rest of the world. That way you show them that fighting you is pointless, but at the same time they will be thankful to you because you spared them. Unless you really want to systematically murder everything inside a country, but thats a waste of resources and will only cause more people to dislike or hate you.


EDIT: just to quickly respond to what you said to Silvir, the west fears the middle east because some politicians and media outlets have been creating fears that are entirely based on bullshit. Not the entire middle east is out to get us. Not all muslims want the Shaira introduced all over the world. And the extremists are only a small part. If anything, the west has been generalizing its fears for a very small group on every muslim.
I always thought we didnt like them because they oppose are campaign of globalization.
 

Zero Phoenix

The Second Coming of Hazama
#46
In which case there is no real peace anyways. There will always be war, even if you try to destroy a country.
Now you're getting it.:XD:


I mean, look at the outcome of the first World War. France and England tried to get back at Germany, by taking away much of its military, an important economic area, and giving them ridiculous fines. 22 years later Germany once again crushed France under its heel.
Debatable. Germany wasn't reduced to a completely non-militaristic state. As long as a country has independence they have power. The rules of the game are solid, France and Britain just f#cked up.


Then the second world war ended, and Germany was given a chance to rebuild and resume normal relations with the rest of Europe. Now they are one of the best performing countries in Europe. Same could be said for France after the allies defeated Napoleon. They allowed France to take part in the negotiations in Vienna, and they ensured France wouldnt be utterly destroyed. For next century France also became an invaluable part of Europe.
Noted and true.


If you want to deal with hostile countries for good, you need to wait until they attack you, and then crush their military.
We agree. Issue is America doesn't. Our approach to terrorism is to let them shoot and bomb us. Our enemies pursue without restraint, we pursue them at "All deliberate speed."


But afterwards, you have to give them a chance to rebuild and resume a normal peaceful relationship without. That way you show them that fighting you is pointless, but at the same time they will be thankful to you because you spared them. Unless you really want to systematically murder everything inside a country, but thats a waste of resources and will only cause more people to dislike or hate you.
I understand the logic in your approach and I agree. Only issue is if we subscribe to that viewpoint we would both be reality impaired. No matter how many times an aggressive nation is knocked down. They will be just as aggressive everytime they get back up. Improve their economy and they'll develop weapons to destroy you. Educate them and they'll learn to make bombs. Dig them a well and they'll drown you in it. The best solution is to knock these nations down one-time in a way where they can't get back up. Ever.


EDIT: just to quickly respond to what you said to Silvir, the west fears the middle east because some politicians and media outlets have been creating fears that are entirely based on bullshit. Not the entire middle east is out to get us. Not all muslims want the Shaira introduced all over the world. And the extremists are only a small part. If anything, the west has been generalizing its fears for a very small group on every muslim.
Along those lines I would say that you also missed the point. If 30 percent of the Muslim world is aggressive towards the west, that 30 percent should be wiped out. If it's one percent or 100 percent they need to be dealt with in the same way. Peace cannot exist between people who want it and people who do not.


I always thought we didnt like them because they oppose are campaign of globalization.

:XD:I always assumed they were jealous.

[MENTION=1716]Silvir[/MENTION]: I tend to use "gross-generalizations" [gross related to sum] because it moves these discussions along faster. I'm fully aware that the entire Muslim world is not out to get us. However, I'm not about to say this percent versus that percent or this demographic contra that one. It's just easier this way.
 

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
#47
Debatable. Germany wasn't reduced to a completely non-militaristic state. As long as a country has independence they have power. The rules of the game are solid, France and Britain just f#cked up.
Such measures would still have bred resentment under the population, and coupled with the economical crisis, the rise of the nazis was as sure as the sun setting in the east.



We agree. Issue is America doesn't. Our approach to terrorism is to let them shoot and bomb us. Our enemies pursue without restraint, we pursue them at "All deliberate speed."
Well thats the problem. Terrorists arent bound by the borders of nation states. They are transnational. So, the logic that is normally used in a system consisting of only nation state actors doesnt fly anymore. Most of the time, you cant invade a country because there is an organization operating there that you dont like. On top of that, you would only be able to reach a small part of the whole organization. You would need to invade the entire Muslim world to get rid of the whole body. No way the rest of the world would let America blatantly violate a nations sovereignty without a very very good reason. And a few extremists are not a good reason. In the end, such an approach would cost America infinitely more then it would gain them. Some extra security in trade of political isolation and possible economic restrictions imposed by the rest of the world is not a good deal.




I understand the logic in your approach and I agree. Only issue is if we subscribe to that viewpoint we would both be reality impaired. No matter how many times an aggressive nation is knocked down. They will be just as aggressive everytime they get back up. Improve their economy and they'll develop weapons to destroy you. Educate them and they'll learn to make bombs. Dig them a well and they'll drown you in it. The best solution is to knock these nations down one-time in a way where they can't get back up. Ever.
If you dont want them to get up ever, you need to kill them all, poison the land and god knows what else. But again, you would work the whole world against you. They would team up, and kill you. Making it a rather ineffective strategy. And again, terrorists are not nations, they are transnational. The best you can do is make more use of the intelligence community and have them pick up individuals. And then on occasion use something like Seal Team Six. But yeah, you already saw the political blowback that action caused.

And no, I dont think that, in the case of nations at least, countries will rise up and automatically hate you. Japan got back up and they dont exactly hate the US, Germany got back up and they dont exactly hate the Allies. Most people within a nation want to live their lives in peace. And if they know the horrors of war, they dont want to go back, only to see their cities bombed to ruins again. As such, its likely they will opt for peace over war, and choose leaders who want the same. Also, if you rebuild their economy, people will get rich, they will be better off then during some war. Giving only more incentives to choose peace and economic progress over war and conquest.

Of course, I do assume that after you won the war, you keep a military presence for a time, and install some kind of democratic system in that country. If you just win the war and then back out, leaving the country to remain bitter and broken, there is a good chance they come back another time for another fight.



Along those lines I would say that you also missed the point. If 30 percent of the Muslim world is aggressive towards the west, that 30 percent should be wiped out. If it's one percent or 100 percent they need to be dealt with in the same way. Peace cannot exist between people who want it and people who do not.
There are one billion Muslims around the world. Good luck killing even 1% without uniting the other 99% against you.
 

Rascal

.........................
#48
For the record, I would like for @Faux Angel to check her gotdamn tone when she speaks to me.
no thanks -____- i'll do as i please, unless of course you plan to return the favor of speaking to me in a respectful manner on occasion, in which case i'd be glad to do the same

There are one billion Muslims around the world. Good luck killing even 1% without uniting the other 99% against you.
you are so wrong.
 

Rascal

.........................
#51
She cannot. She cannot elaborate because you Lexus are 100 percent correct. If you kill one Muslim the rest will take up arms. On the one hand it is admirable. On the other hand it is brutish. Either case, it is the truth.
f*ck you ^^

[MENTION=159]-lexus-[/MENTION] I would never take up arms in defense of a terrorist, i couldnt give a damn what their religion is, I'm muslim, I know loads of muslims, I study, live and breathe the religion, If you kill a Muslim, there is no disturbance in the force that we all feel and rise to fight =___=, however if you kill an innocent, yeah, im gonna be pissed, no im probably not going to grab a gun.... like the majority of the world, I'm going to shake my head in silence
 
#52
f*ck you ^^

@-lexus- I would never take up arms in defense of a terrorist, i couldnt give a damn what their religion is, I'm muslim, I know loads of muslims, I study, live and breathe the religion, If you kill a Muslim, there is no disturbance in the force that we all feel and rise to fight =___=, however if you kill an innocent, yeah, im gonna be pissed, no im probably not going to grab a gun.... like the majority of the world, I'm going to shake my head in silence
Thats weak ...these days if you don't have the 3 most important things(money , respect , influence) The only thing you can do is pick up a gun and start shooting for attention.
 

Rascal

.........................
#53
Thats weak ...these days if you don't have the 3 most important things(money , respect , influence) The only thing you can do is pick up a gun and start shooting for attention.
.......................... did u seriously waste brain cells to put that thought together?
 

Zero Phoenix

The Second Coming of Hazama
#54
Oh my! Does Allah endorse that? But you prove my point. :smart:


@-lexus- I would never take up arms in defense of a terrorist, i couldnt give a damn what their religion is, I'm muslim, I know loads of muslims, I study, live and breathe the religion, If you kill a Muslim, there is no disturbance in the force that we all feel and rise to fight =___=, however if you kill an innocent, yeah, im gonna be pissed, no im probably not going to grab a gun.... like the majority of the world, I'm going to shake my head in silence
To which I respond:


Thats weak ...these days if you don't have the 3 most important things(money , respect , influence) The only thing you can do is pick up a gun and start shooting for attention.
Thank you Prince. Pop quiz: When is the last time we saw any Jews flying shit into buildings, blowing themselves up, stoning women? Anyone? Anyone?
 

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
#55
f*ck you ^^

@-lexus- I would never take up arms in defense of a terrorist, i couldnt give a damn what their religion is, I'm muslim, I know loads of muslims, I study, live and breathe the religion, If you kill a Muslim, there is no disturbance in the force that we all feel and rise to fight =___=, however if you kill an innocent, yeah, im gonna be pissed, no im probably not going to grab a gun.... like the majority of the world, I'm going to shake my head in silence
Two things, first, we arent talking about a few bad apples, we are talking about 10 million people. We already see how the Islamic world perceives it as a war against the Islam if only a fraction of those numbers is killed in combat. No way they are going to let 10 million casualties slide just like that.

Second, this is what YOU would do. You however, are not a good indication of what 990 million other people would do.
 

Zero Phoenix

The Second Coming of Hazama
#56
Two things, first, we arent talking about a few bad apples, we are talking about 10 million people. We already see how the Islamic world perceives it as a war against the Islam if only a fraction of those numbers is killed in combat. No way they are going to let 10 million casualties slide just like that.

Second, this is what YOU would do. You however, are not a good indication of what 990 million other people would do.

Anyone? Anyone know the last time a Jew blew up a school? How many soldiers were killed by Jews last week? Hmm, hm anyone? Yeah that's what the hell I thought. You've become so quiet Faux Angel? Is that because you've been backed into a corner by the truth? Is it because you're waiting on some pagan god to rescue you from reality? Are you waiting on someone to save you?

Only Y2J can save you. :hohoho: But seriously, you're fighting a losing battle here. But what else might I expect? :smart:
 

Zero Phoenix

The Second Coming of Hazama
#58
Its the truth. Fuax don't be one those annoying people who are to afraid to admit the Truth and instead hide behind some optimistic bullshit lie.
Yeah, listen to The Prince. He's a cool guy. :coool: When the Truth is right in front of you, don't pretend it's a fabrication just because you're trying to save face.
 

Rascal

.........................
#59
Oh my! Does Allah endorse that? But you prove my point.
fuck you ^^

Two things, first, we arent talking about a few bad apples, we are talking about 10 million people. We already see how the Islamic world perceives it as a war against the Islam if only a fraction of those numbers is killed in combat. No way they are going to let 10 million casualties slide just like that.

Second, this is what YOU would do. You however, are not a good indication of what 990 million other people would do.
....I am muslim, and as such have a much better right to say anything compared to you who are just shooting off at the mouth about something you dont understand anything about , what exactly is it about my religion that makes you think it has some amazing bonding mechanism that would make us do such a thing?

@prince OTL dude ur IQ is lacking ... @zero ... ok... then go find a gun and start shooting if u agree so much =___=
 

Rascal

.........................
#60
Anyone? Anyone know the last time a Jew blew up a school? How many soldiers were killed by Jews last week? Hmm, hm anyone? Yeah that's what the hell I thought. You've become so quiet Faux Angel? Is that because you've been backed into a corner by the truth? Is it because you're waiting on some pagan god to rescue you from reality? Are you waiting on someone to save you?
Jews kill just as much. its a human thing. and nah not quiet... just preoccupied with stuff that actually maters ^^ , and nah ive got no pagan god... thats absurd and you know it. save me from what? x.x i feel quite safe as it is