Peace and what it costs.

Zero Phoenix

The Second Coming of Hazama
#1
I find it humorous that so many people have so many different ideals for what would make a perfect system of governance. Derivatives of currently existing systems are meaningless because all systems at their core are in pursuit of one singular goal which is peace. The chasing after of peace and the attainment thereof are equally paradoxical as it can only come at the cost of war.

1) Human civilization works toward a single goal, i.e., peace. 2) The attainment of peace is sought via political systems. Note: the decision to refrain from adopting a rigid system of politics is in and of itself a political system. 3) Each political system will create problems within its borders (15th Century France) or encounter problems due to irreconcilable differences with other nations (20th and 21st Century America). 4) In either case, these trouble spots will invariably lead to outbreaks of war whether they be of a "civil" or "world" variety.

All systems are flawed not because humans are flawed. Rather all political systems are flawed because civilization can only be sustained at the cost of human lives.

Sometime in the course of human debacles there was a caveman who learned he could get a bigger piece of a kill by bonking his tribesman on the head. Other cavemen happened upon this practice either by firsthand accounts or synchronicity. At some point man learned to refine it's brutality when tribes began to unify and organize their violent tendencies. We can have more land if we kill the people living there. We can have more food if we kill other hunters. Man's first instinct always lay with the self-serving. It's not wrong, it's natural and morality does not exist in a natural state. In either case the moment violence became a solution it became the only solution and therefore the best solution. Violence is practical for the powerful, doesn't require much thought, and always gets results. Always. Of course I never said the result was always good.

Eighteenth century France sought to sustain its empire and had little issue raping the Chinese in its endeavor. Great Britain wanted to maintain its position as the world’s greatest existing superpower at the time and had no issue going to war with France and China to ensure it remained that way. When Colonial America sought to separate herself from The Crown the easiest way to do it was through war. And of course nothing stimulated the American economy as well as wiping out the Natives, raping the land, and destroying civilization after civilization of indigenous people.

The world is not leaning towards a war economy. The world is a war economy. When countries are in need of more money, more land, more markets, it is practical to acquire those things by any means necessary. War is always a an available means and if it becomes easy to implement then it automatically becomes practical and therefore the best solution.

Unfortunately, the opinions of the people as well as those of the soldiers fighting in war never enter into the equation when world leaders make the decision to war with other countries. Their lives matter yes but their opinions not so much. Why? Because in the eyes of each country's respective leaders, they are doing what is best for their country. If they have to rape, steal, pillage, destroy, or burn another country to the ground then they will do that. Other countries operate on the same principle and always have since people first learned how to organize. Like it or not, we've all profited from unholy wars, slavery, and ethnic cleansing in some way or another. It's an ugly world but it is the single, selfish act of each nation pursuing their own wealth that has allowed mankind to progress this far.

For example, during World War I, Germany aimed to establish itself as a superpower. A failed attempt yes but we haven't gotten there. In any case Germany allied with Russia and Japan in World War II as it continued this goal. The growing power of the Axis powers forced France, America, Great Britain, and the smaller countries in the Allied powers to unite. Interestingly enough, Japan which had long-since been closed to the ways of the west quickly assimilated to the west after World War II. Different ideologies spread across the world as alliances were forged and barriers were destroyed. The western influence in the Middle East can be seen via the media's affect on Middle Eastern politics and the revolutions wrought left and right.

Countless breakthroughs come about in areas of technology, medicine, education, agriculture, and so forth. Countries do not experience progressive growth during times of peace but during times of war. The current world in a state of unrest has not seen this much industrial growth since World War II. And of course the same economic issue seen there is prevalent today as well but I'll leave that matter alone for the moment.

Civilization exists in the current form due to centuries of advances attained through war.
 

noex1337

Emmie was here
#2
Not trying to be an ass here, but what is the main point that you're trying to discuss. This seems a bit more like a magazina article and less like a debate topic.
 

Zero Phoenix

The Second Coming of Hazama
#3
Not trying to be an ass here, but what is the main point that you're trying to discuss. This seems a bit more like a magazina article and less like a debate topic.
In trying not to be an ass you most certainly came to appear as one. The point of the topic Noex is to discuss war and it's affects on human civilization both negative and positive.
 

noex1337

Emmie was here
#4
Not much to say here, war is fueled by greed. But I don't mind war one bit, it's peace that I find boring.

BTW, there's no need to take offense to everything.
 

Zero Phoenix

The Second Coming of Hazama
#5
Not much to say here, war is fueled by greed. But I don't mind war one bit, it's peace that I find boring.
Is war fueled by greed or necessity? Nothing is wrong with wanting Noex, it's what one does with that desire that matters. If a group of people wish to become a nation at the expense of those who choose not to, it's not a matter of greed but advancement.


BTW, there's no need to take offense to everything.
I'll take those words and redirect them to you.
 

noex1337

Emmie was here
#6
Is war fueled by greed or necessity? Nothing is wrong with wanting Noex, it's what one does with that desire that matters. If a group of people wish to become a nation at the expense of those who choose not to, it's not a matter of greed but advancement.
Was there ever a "necessity" to form a nation? I doubt it, at least not in the early stages. So I still think it's about greed.

I'll take those words and redirect them to you.
Oh, don't worry. I just felt the need to say it since you seem to be forming an emotional reaction to every post I make.
 

Zero Phoenix

The Second Coming of Hazama
#7
Was there ever a "necessity" to form a nation? I doubt it, at least not in the early stages. So I still think it's about greed.


That's an interesting argument. How would you prove it I wonder.


Oh, don't worry. I just felt the need to say it since you seem to be forming an emotional reaction to every post I make.

No, I'm just wondering are you acting foolish to spite me or if you truly are unable to have an intelligent discussion. I'm not angry but I'm awfully confused. ;o.o;
 

Pimp

Follower of kiyology
#8
Peace will never come..... There is no money in peace.

Until someone makes peace profitable beyond war then we are shit out of luck.
 

noex1337

Emmie was here
#10
That's an interesting argument. How would you prove it I wonder.
Humans don't "need" to form civilizations, they've survived without them in the past. And while it may not be directly related, I will remind you that the majority of technological advancements through out history were created out of greed/laziness and not necessity.

No, I'm just wondering are you acting foolish to spite me or if you truly are unable to have an intelligent discussion. I'm not angry but I'm awfully confused. ;o.o;
Asking the topic of a discussion does not equate to spite. You take things too personally.
 

Zero Phoenix

The Second Coming of Hazama
#11
Humans don't "need" to form civilizations, they've survived without them in the past. And while it may not be directly related, I will remind you that the majority of technological advancements through out history were created out of greed/laziness and not necessity.
And I would reiterate thus, "How would you prove that?"



Asking the topic of a discussion does not equate to spite. You take things too personally.
It's either spite or stupidity. Choose. Because I most certainly made the topic of the discussion quite clear. For the third time the topic is war and it's affects on human civilization.

These were my primary arguments. While not entirely my position I figured they would be good starting points.

The chasing after of peace and the attainment thereof are equally paradoxical as it can only come at the cost of war.
Civilization exists in the current form due to centuries of advances attained through war.
 

noex1337

Emmie was here
#12
And I would reiterate thus, "How would you prove that?"
It depends on what you consider proof. Some may say that the Native American hunter gatherers should be proof enough, considering their lack of a need for civilization. Unless you're actually asking for proof that the first civilization wasn't born from necessity.
 

Zero Phoenix

The Second Coming of Hazama
#13
It depends on what you consider proof. Some may say that the Native American hunter gatherers should be proof enough, considering their lack of a need for civilization. Unless you're actually asking for proof that the first civilization wasn't born from necessity.
I would argue that Native American hunters and gatherers were an early form of civilization. You're looking at this too simplistically Noex. Civilization is not cities and towns. The roots of civilization lay in the origins of the formation of groups. Thus I would argue that even in small tribes of hunters and gatherers we see civilization born out of necessity. Humans don't form groups without there being a need to do so. One hunter might catch his prey or he might become prey. Six hunters would have a better chance of success and each individual would have a higher chance of survival by being part of that group. These are the roots of a civilization.
 

noex1337

Emmie was here
#14
I would argue that Native American hunters and gatherers were an early form of civilization. You're looking at this too simplistically Noex. Civilization is not cities and towns. The roots of civilization lay in the origins of the formation of groups. Thus I would argue that even in small tribes of hunters and gatherers we see civilization born out of necessity. Humans don't form groups without there being a need to do so. One hunter might catch his prey or he might become prey. Six hunters would have a better chance of success and each individual would have a higher chance of survival by being part of that group. These are the roots of a civilization.
Oi, please don't bring this back to a discussion of civilization. I cringe when I remember the painful process of explaining it to lexus. But if you ever care for my definition of civilization, it's buried within that Osama thread but it has something to do with advancements in science, technology, and infrastructure, so I don't consider a collection of hunter gatherers to be "civilized". But that's besides the point. Forming these groups are out of necessity, I can agree to that. I will even go as far to say that disputes over resources can be out of necessity (I'm referring to vital resources like food, not gold or oil). However, I cannot think of one war that was born out of necessity. Now I'm not 100% certain, so feel free to prove me wrong if you are able, but that's why I say war is fueled by greed.
 

Zero Phoenix

The Second Coming of Hazama
#15
Oi, please don't bring this back to a discussion of civilization. I cringe when I remember the painful process of explaining it to lexus. But if you ever care for my definition of civilization, it's buried within that Osama thread but it has something to do with advancements in science, technology, and infrastructure, so I don't consider a collection of hunter gatherers to be "civilized". But that's besides the point. Forming these groups are out of necessity, I can agree to that. I will even go as far to say that disputes over resources can be out of necessity (I'm referring to vital resources like food, not gold or oil). However, I cannot think of one war that was born out of necessity. Now I'm not 100% certain, so feel free to prove me wrong if you are able, but that's why I say war is fueled by greed.
Well civilization and the sustainability thereof is part of the topic. So if you don't want to talk about civilization as it relates to this topic then by all means your input is not needed. Civilization is an integral part of the topic so if you're not at liberty to discuss then be silent. I'm not being rude I'm just pointing that out. If we were talking about economics and you didn't want to talk about money or business then you probably wouldn't post in that topic. It would not behoove you to do so.

I actually don't care for your definition of civilization. Your definition doesn't matter. We have Merriam-Webster.


Definition of CIVILIZATION
1
a : a relatively high level of cultural and technological development; specifically : the stage of cultural development at which writing and the keeping of written records is attained b : the culture characteristic of a particular time or place

2
: the process of becoming civilized

3
a : refinement of thought, manners, or taste b : a situation of urban comfort

Definition one would pertain to hunters and gatherers. Why? Because unification would be a form of cultural development. You might say that the formation of culture and the development thereof are intertwined.
 

noex1337

Emmie was here
#16
Good, I'll post the same thing here that I posted on your VM. Look at definition 1a and tell me that the hunter gatherers were "civilized". Do notice the key words "relatively high" and "technological development". Your first explanation seemed to ignore both of them.

And even so, that's not even the point. Tell me one war that was fueled by necessity. Just one, that's all you need to disprove me.
 

-lexus-

Visions of Hell
#17
Hmm, if I read the opening post I think you make a big contradiction. You say that peace is the ultimate goal of every political system, but when you read out the history of several nations, peace never seems to be goal. More like the maintenance or improvement of ones own political position compared to your rivals. Or, the Balance of Power if you want to use the correct term. Which is true, seeing how for the most part, realism was the only International Relations theory for the longest time, at least within Europe. And seeing how that influenced political thinking, its hardly a wonder that the 17th and 18th century were a bloodbath in Europe. One war after the other was fought over this Balance of Power.


Anyways this did have its advantages. Superior military technology allowed Europeans to conquer most of the world, and it certainly helped form effective governments. After all, you need money to fight wars, and since wars were getting more expensive, more money was required. That meant more efficient taxing, meaning you had to set up some sort of bureaucracy to monitor the taxing. The more expensive wars got, the more effective and professional these bureaucracies also got. And so the government became what it is today, simply said.


Was there ever a "necessity" to form a nation? I doubt it, at least not in the early stages. So I still think it's about greed.
No necessity in the sense that it is vital for a state to survive. Although it can be rather useful. It does create a cultural identity, and that can certainly help the state in some cases. Countries the size of America wouldnt be possible if America wasnt a nation, it would disintegrate into countless smaller groups who isolate themselves from each other. You would get get where Russia is now, with massive civil unrest within the Caucasus.

Smaller states are less likely to run in those problems, especially in these days, but its still possible.
 

Zero Phoenix

The Second Coming of Hazama
#18
My god Noex you can't compete with me. Hunters and gatherers were civilized because they meet both criteria in definition one. 1) Unification is a form of cultural development. 2) The use of hunting tools is a form of technological development. The creation of spears would be a technological development. What, you think they hunted with their barehands?
 

noex1337

Emmie was here
#19
Hmm, if I read the opening post I think you make a big contradiction. You say that peace is the ultimate goal of every political system, but when you read out the history of several nations, peace never seems to be goal. More like the maintenance or improvement of ones own political position compared to your rivals. Or, the Balance of Power if you want to use the correct term. Which is true, seeing how for the most part, realism was the only International Relations theory for the longest time, at least within Europe. And seeing how that influenced political thinking, its hardly a wonder that the 17th and 18th century were a bloodbath in Europe. One war after the other was fought over this Balance of Power.


Anyways this did have its advantages. Superior military technology allowed Europeans to conquer most of the world, and it certainly helped form effective governments. After all, you need money to fight wars, and since wars were getting more expensive, more money was required. That meant more efficient taxing, meaning you had to set up some sort of bureaucracy to monitor the taxing. The more expensive wars got, the more effective and professional these bureaucracies also got. And so the government became what it is today, simply said.



No necessity in the sense that it is vital for a state to survive. Although it can be rather useful. It does create a cultural identity, and that can certainly help the state in some cases. Countries the size of America wouldnt be possible if America wasnt a nation, it would disintegrate into countless smaller groups who isolate themselves from each other. You would get get where Russia is now, with massive civil unrest within the Caucasus.

Smaller states are less likely to run in those problems, especially in these days, but its still possible.
No, you misunderstand. I've never once said it wasn't useful or beneficial, just that it was never necessary.
 

Zero Phoenix

The Second Coming of Hazama
#20
No, you misunderstand. I've never once said it wasn't useful or beneficial, just that it was never necessary.

No. I understood that quite plainly. My counter-argument was that it "was necessary." If civilization could grow by means other than war we would have long-since employed them.